A Much Larger Rome that Survives until the Present Day Version 2.0
- Thread starter ericams2786
- Start date
Eurofed
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In the brief and medium term, Rome is certainly going to focus on assimilation of conquered territories in Northern Europe and the Middle East, and aggressive behavior from Scythians, Norse, and Nubians means that the next targets for conquest and subsequent assimilation shall be Scandinavia, European Russia, and the Horn of Africa. India is a biggie to swallow and digest, and requires the undivided attention of the Roman Empire, without any troubles at home, with China, or the steppe nomads. So for a good while, Rome is indeed going to settle for peaceful trade with India. Not forever, though. Sooner or later, Rome is going to be fresh and without big troubles elsewhere, under an ambitious militarist emperor, and then India shall be conquered. This both because conquering India would make trade with more profitable for Rome, because it is quite a valuable area for Rome to own, and because conquering India is an old expansionistic dream of the Greco-Roman elites.
Yes, pardon the lack of clarity in my post. I meant that the benefits of trade and cultural exchange between India and Rome do not need to wait until the former is conquered by the latter - and that if the Mathurans continue their aggression, Rome will undermine them and support aother powers that does get it.
Agree on the immediate areas of expansion; I'd add Hibernia and Arabia. Indeed, especially once Nubia and Axum are take, Arabia becomes especially enticing - it shortens Rome's border, closing an entire frontier; Arabia Felix is full of luxury goods the Romans want; and it will enable greatter volumes of trade with India, the Far East, and Zanzibar.
Taking Hibernia has the attraction of ending the last bastion of Druidism, which the Romans considered a dangerous cult. Indeed, extirpating Druidism, with its ddangerous popularity in Gaul, was a major motivator for Claudius' OTL invasion of Britain.
Agree on the immediate areas of expansion; I'd add Hibernia and Arabia. Indeed, especially once Nubia and Axum are take, Arabia becomes especially enticing - it shortens Rome's border, closing an entire frontier; Arabia Felix is full of luxury goods the Romans want; and it will enable greatter volumes of trade with India, the Far East, and Zanzibar.
Taking Hibernia has the attraction of ending the last bastion of Druidism, which the Romans considered a dangerous cult. Indeed, extirpating Druidism, with its ddangerous popularity in Gaul, was a major motivator for Claudius' OTL invasion of Britain.
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Eurofed
Banned
Then we are in full agreement.
You are absolutely right in adding Hibernia and Arabia (especially the latter, for the reasons you quote) to the list of immediate areas of Roman expansion.740 AUC (13 BCE):
Domestic: The Mausoleum Octavia is finished and Octavius’ sarcophagus is laid to rest in the tomb. Ptolemy Caesar and Agrippa return to Rome. The rebuilding of the Forum Julium and its structures is completed in this year and an entire month of games called the Octavilares (games in honor of Octavius) are held at the Colosseum to celebrate the defeat of Agricola and the rebuilding of damaged parts of Rome. Cleopatra, mother of Ptolemy Caesar, dies at the age of 56 due to what many modern forensic scientists believe was breast cancer. Ptolemy, grief stricken over his mother’s death, orders the construction of a pyramid to be built in her honor (as well as that of his father) in the Valley of the Kings in Aegyptus named the Pyramidia Cleopatra. Ptolemy commissions Gaeus Curiatius Ahenobarbus, the most famous architect of his time, and his apprentice Cleothenes (a Greek architect), to oversee the massive project which begins late in the year. In response to the uprisings in Germania and Dacia, Ptolemy issues the Edictum Colonium Ptolemium, a massive expansion of Roman colonization in both Germania and Dacia. The edict commissions nearly sixty new colonies throughout the vast lands of northeast Europe. Ptolemy also issues the Edictum Epistulum which modifies the functioning of and strengthens the mail carrier system originally commissioned by Octavius. The changes significantly increase the number of mail stations along the Empire’s roads and the number of staff available at each station, while making the use of the Caesar Cipher standard in sending emergency messages along the system (rather than waiting on written correspondence to be carried via horse to its destination). Gallacea in Hispania begins a 10-year-long probationary period of military rule (in addition to the one year remaining of its time as a military province) due to a revolt by the Cantabri. Zhuang spends the year touring much of North Africa, staying in Carthage for much of the year before continuing his journey to Aegyptus. During his travels in North Africa, Zhuang observes a battle between a Roman legion and a marauding band of Garamantian cavalry. Due to a growing population and to make administration easier, the province of Hispania Ulterior is divided into Baetica in the south and Lusitania (with Cimber being appointed the first Proconsul) in the west. Hispania Citerior is divided into Tarraconensis and Carthaginensis. The Imperial Senate now has 77 members. The total size (GDP) of the Roman Empire’s economy is estimated by modern historians to be approximately 28.4 billion imperus [Imperial Dollar] in today’s currency, based on figures provided by the ancient Roman economist Lucius Halutius Quarnius (Quarnian) on wheat production and prices in Frugalitas Imperias first published in 791 AUC.
Military: A revolt of the Cantabri in Gallaecia starts the brief Cantabrian War and Agrippa is once again sent to quell a rebellion.
Foreign: The Garamantes once again raid the Roman frontier south of Leptis Magna, but are repulsed by a Roman legion. The Han Chinese sign formal peace treaties with several tribes of the Western Xiongnu. The peace treaties lead to a formal confederation of Western Xiongnu tribes under the leadership of Daohn Gaognu who begins advocating for Xiongnu expansion into Central Asia and south into Persia, as he believes expansion into these areas would be simultaneously easier than war with China and more profitable.
Domestic: The Mausoleum Octavia is finished and Octavius’ sarcophagus is laid to rest in the tomb. Ptolemy Caesar and Agrippa return to Rome. The rebuilding of the Forum Julium and its structures is completed in this year and an entire month of games called the Octavilares (games in honor of Octavius) are held at the Colosseum to celebrate the defeat of Agricola and the rebuilding of damaged parts of Rome. Cleopatra, mother of Ptolemy Caesar, dies at the age of 56 due to what many modern forensic scientists believe was breast cancer. Ptolemy, grief stricken over his mother’s death, orders the construction of a pyramid to be built in her honor (as well as that of his father) in the Valley of the Kings in Aegyptus named the Pyramidia Cleopatra. Ptolemy commissions Gaeus Curiatius Ahenobarbus, the most famous architect of his time, and his apprentice Cleothenes (a Greek architect), to oversee the massive project which begins late in the year. In response to the uprisings in Germania and Dacia, Ptolemy issues the Edictum Colonium Ptolemium, a massive expansion of Roman colonization in both Germania and Dacia. The edict commissions nearly sixty new colonies throughout the vast lands of northeast Europe. Ptolemy also issues the Edictum Epistulum which modifies the functioning of and strengthens the mail carrier system originally commissioned by Octavius. The changes significantly increase the number of mail stations along the Empire’s roads and the number of staff available at each station, while making the use of the Caesar Cipher standard in sending emergency messages along the system (rather than waiting on written correspondence to be carried via horse to its destination). Gallacea in Hispania begins a 10-year-long probationary period of military rule (in addition to the one year remaining of its time as a military province) due to a revolt by the Cantabri. Zhuang spends the year touring much of North Africa, staying in Carthage for much of the year before continuing his journey to Aegyptus. During his travels in North Africa, Zhuang observes a battle between a Roman legion and a marauding band of Garamantian cavalry. Due to a growing population and to make administration easier, the province of Hispania Ulterior is divided into Baetica in the south and Lusitania (with Cimber being appointed the first Proconsul) in the west. Hispania Citerior is divided into Tarraconensis and Carthaginensis. The Imperial Senate now has 77 members. The total size (GDP) of the Roman Empire’s economy is estimated by modern historians to be approximately 28.4 billion imperus [Imperial Dollar] in today’s currency, based on figures provided by the ancient Roman economist Lucius Halutius Quarnius (Quarnian) on wheat production and prices in Frugalitas Imperias first published in 791 AUC.
Military: A revolt of the Cantabri in Gallaecia starts the brief Cantabrian War and Agrippa is once again sent to quell a rebellion.
Foreign: The Garamantes once again raid the Roman frontier south of Leptis Magna, but are repulsed by a Roman legion. The Han Chinese sign formal peace treaties with several tribes of the Western Xiongnu. The peace treaties lead to a formal confederation of Western Xiongnu tribes under the leadership of Daohn Gaognu who begins advocating for Xiongnu expansion into Central Asia and south into Persia, as he believes expansion into these areas would be simultaneously easier than war with China and more profitable.
Yeah pretty much Sakas. There's an Indian city called Mathura. Basically because of the butterflies introduced in this TL, I'm having them become a lot more powerful than in OTL. As time goes on, there will of course be many different Indian kingdoms/empires that diverge greatly from OTL. Here is the map:
http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_001ad.jpg
Eurofed
Banned
For the first, and not the worst, of several visitations in history. This Rome is quite able to deal with the shock, however.
Little details like this make the TL rather virant. Imperus...
For the first, and not the worst, of several visitations in history. This Rome is quite able to deal with the shock, however.
Little details like this make the TL rather virant. Imperus...
Rome will be able to deal with the shock, but it's going to be a pretty long and difficult war for them.
Eurofed
Banned
Of course, because Rome has not yet fought with large concentrations of steppe nomads, and the legions are not yet familiar with their tactics. I expect most subsequent wars with nomad breakouts to be less traumatic for Rome, as the legions become quite adept with this kind of war. Of course, the Hun and Mongol breakouts shall still be an headache because of their severity.
Not so; the Scythians, surely, are steppe nomads par excellence, and they featured prominently in the recent Dacian revolt.
Both of you are correct: there are going to be much larger numbers of Xiongnu invading than Scythians. The Roman cavalry forces, though small, were enough to deal with the Scythians. The Xiongnu are going to overwhelm the Romans at first.
Yes and it will happen, but slowly. The Romans will be kind of slow at changing the paradigm, but after being completely out-maneuvered by the highly mobile Xiongnu, Ptolemy will eventually reform the legions and cavalry, both light and heavy will become much more central to Roman military land doctrine, especially on the Asian and European border frontier.
Rex Romanum
Banned
I was wondering, ericams, will you ignoring butterfly effect like the old version of your TL and using OTL person like Diocletian, Belisarius, Charlemagne, Barbarossa, Saladin, etc...?
(BTW this is the best ATL that I ever read...)
(BTW this is the best ATL that I ever read...)
I will only ignore the butterfly effect in some instances. There are some OTL people I just want in my TL. However, I don't plan to ignore it to the extent that I did before; this TL will feature a much stronger butterfly effect and right now I'm gradually making that happen. Obviously the people who were alive at the time of the POD will slowly die off (as they are), and though some people born after the POD in OTL will be born in this TL, there will be fewer and fewer people from OTL populating this world. Eventually I will only leave a few people from OTL in this world, but often times they will either have slightly different names and/or be in different situations. For instance, I've already mentioned the birth of OTL Arminius, but he has a different name and will be playing a completely different role from OTL.
Oh and thank you for the compliment. I'm really wanting to actually win a Turtledove eventually...
It's strange that you mention it, but yes I've already decided on the name "Songnii" for the Xiongnu. Basically a mess up in translation leads to the Latinized word "songnu" which sounds somewhat like "xiongnu". It's going to really be a struggle later on to come up with Latinized words for geographical features, etc. that in OTL didn't have a Latinized name. I want it to sound realistic and not cheezy, but it's going to be difficult. What do you think of "Songnii"?