A more reasonable Henry VIII?

[Euphemios]

I am assuming for the sake of this thought experiment that Henry's moral compass ends up being a lot like ours, rather than his historical one which gained him his infamy.
We could have different PoDs, since the earlier scenarios would butterfly the troubles that would occur later.

For one from the beginning, to start off:
There is nothing much that Henry had a say in until the issue of marriage with Catherine comes up, and I see no reason this scenario would have it any other way.
Casting a wide butterfly net, Mary is born and years later still Henry and Catherine have had no living sons.
What would a palatable Henry, who is loath to cause his wife and daughter so much sorrow do here? Does he merrily marry Mary (heh) to a suitable bachelor, hoping for a grandson to succeed him?
Any idea for who would be advantageous for Henry around 1532, when Mary comes of age?

What are some other decisions that Henry could have made differently?

 

[The Gybson Boy]

I am assuming for the sake of this thought experiment that Henry's moral compass ends up being a lot like ours, rather than his historical one which gained him his infamy.
We could have different PoDs, since the earlier scenarios would butterfly the troubles that would occur later.

For one from the beginning, to start off:
There is nothing much that Henry had a say in until the issue of marriage with Catherine comes up, and I see no reason this scenario would have it any other way.
Casting a wide butterfly net, Mary is born and years later still Henry and Catherine have had no living sons.
What would a palatable Henry, who is loath to cause his wife and daughter so much sorrow do here? Does he merrily marry Mary (heh) to a suitable bachelor, hoping for a grandson to succeed him?
Any idea for who would be advantageous for Henry around 1532, when Mary comes of age?

What are some other decisions that Henry could have made differently?

That's exactly it, a more moral Henry would probably try to marry Mary to James V of Scotland, but this marriage would be viable, among other reasons because James V didn't like the English and because of the Auld Alliance, so the second option comes in the form of some Habsburg procurator like Duarte or Fernando of Aviz or a surviving Hans of Denmark

 

[DrakeRlugia]

What are some other decisions that Henry could have made differently?

For one, he could've simply waited it out.

Catherine was older than Henry... granted, five years isn't much, but Catherine put herself through hell trying to bare a son. She'd spend hours at prayer, and often fasted until she made herself sick. Simply put, her constitution was not as strong as Henry's, and given the state of medical care in the 16th century, she could've died at any point. Granted this could backfire (Catherine's sister Joanna lived into her eighties) but it's also totally plausible that Henry would outlive Catherine and be able to remarry. Her being gone without the tumult of trying to divorce her / break from Rome would make any subsequent remarriage a lot easier, and he'd have his pick of European princesses.

Catherine ~1532 wasn't in the best shape anyways, certainly it would spare anyone and everyone if instead of trying to shut her away, he plays the part of the doting husband / father during her final illness and after a reasonable period of time decides to remarry. It also makes the situation better for Mary: without his attempts to disinherit her / name her a bastard, her marriage options will be much better, especially if he remarries and has a son.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

the Auld Alliance

It won't exist if he's also king jure-uxoris of England...

 

[CaesarKhan]

What are some other decisions that Henry could have made differently?

POD: Henry accepts the cards dealt.

Henry resigns himself to not having a son by Catherine, and begins grooming Mary for the crown herself.

Option A: Mary never marries, ala Elizabeth.

He could instill in Mary a refusal to marry, living up to the virginity of her biblical namesake (the virgin queen epithet would have even more power with a monarch actually named Mary). The crown would likely end up being inherited by Scotland, though if Henry is thinking about Mary's future earlier and she shares his opinions on her inheritance, Jane Grey or one of her sisters could successfully succeed.

Option B: Mary marries Scottish.

Mary marries James V, he becomes jure-uxoris King of England after Henry dies though I imagine Henry would set it up so that Mary has full control over her kingdom until she herself passes. Their offspring, assuming they have them, inherit both crowns. The auld alliance is broken, though Scotland gets the crown and their house sits in London.

Option C: Mary marries English.

Mary marries a lesser English noble, Henry Brandon probably being the most likely option given his Tudor blood. King Henry either accepts that his house loses the throne, or maybe tries some legal tomfoolery to have the royal name pass through Mary instead and have their descendants still be recognized as Tudor (he was always quite vain, after all, and Brandon does have Tudor in him too). This ensures England doesn't get swallowed up by a larger European entity, which is why I don't see any French or Spanish-Austrian marriage being possible without the specific circumstances of OTL.

Secret Option D: Mary marries another Tudor.

The Tudors of Penmynydd are still around and will be for some time, and I don't think I have ever actually seen anyone put this forward as a possibility - If Henry accepts that Mary will inherit and still wants his house to inarguably retain the throne, the obvious marriage choice would be another lesser-line Tudor. They have lands in Wales though are far from powerful, so any chosen husband will likely have no issues with allowing Mary to rule until her death so long as their children take over.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Secret Option D: Mary marries another Tudor

If this was an option, she'd have done so as a young girl IOTL, butterflying away Henry's divorce of Katherine....

 

[Elfwine]

The Tudors of Penmynydd are still around and will be for some time, and I don't think I have ever actually seen anyone put this forward as a possibility - If Henry accepts that Mary will inherit and still wants his house to inarguably retain the throne, the obvious marriage choice would be another lesser-line Tudor. They have lands in Wales though are far from powerful, so any chosen husband will likely have no issues with allowing Mary to rule until her death so long as their children take over.

Who would this likely be as far as finding an unmarried one of around the right age?

 

[Aichi72]

Option C: Mary marries English.

Mary marries a lesser English noble, Henry Brandon probably being the most likely option given his Tudor blood. King Henry either accepts that his house loses the throne, or maybe tries some legal tomfoolery to have the royal name pass through Mary instead and have their descendants still be recognized as Tudor (he was always quite vain, after all, and Brandon does have Tudor in him too). This ensures England doesn't get swallowed up by a larger European entity, which is why I don't see any French or Spanish-Austrian marriage being possible without the specific circumstances of OTL.

I think option C would be more likely to be a foreign match. There are probably some second or more sons around who would jump at a chance for the English Crown jure uxoris, with Habsburg proxies in the Aviz and possibly Denmark already mentioned. If needed, a prince of a more minor Catholic state like one of the Italian or German ones is probably preferable to elevating a domestic house, which may alienate other nobles of the realm. Also, I have trouble seeing Henry VIII settling for a domestic match for his only (legitimate) daughter and heir when there are much more prestigious foreign matches to be made.

 

[Fulano]

A more reasonable Henry VIII would have not wasted a big part of England's royal treasury into the whole Holy Roman Empire affair, and probably would have accepted Christian II's deal of buying Iceland from Denmark.

 

[CaesarKhan]

Who would this likely be as far as finding an unmarried one of around the right age?

Richard Owen Theodore Tudor II (quite a mouthful, especially for the time in history) most likely. We don't have a specific date of birth for him but given his father's death date (1527) and his son's death date (1624), he was likely around Mary's age (they both coincidentally died in the same year OTL, 1558).

He had an illegitimate brother William who I can find basically no information on, who is really the only other arguably-Tudor choice *shrug*

 

[material_boy]

That's exactly it, a more moral Henry would probably try to marry Mary to James V of Scotland, but this marriage would be viable, among other reasons because James V didn't like the English and because of the Auld Alliance, so the second option comes in the form of some Habsburg procurator like Duarte or Fernando of Aviz or a surviving Hans of Denmark

For one, he could've simply waited it out.

Catherine was older than Henry... granted, five years isn't much, but Catherine put herself through hell trying to bare a son. She'd spend hours at prayer, and often fasted until she made herself sick. Simply put, her constitution was not as strong as Henry's, and given the state of medical care in the 16th century, she could've died at any point. Granted this could backfire (Catherine's sister Joanna lived into her eighties) but it's also totally plausible that Henry would outlive Catherine and be able to remarry. Her being gone without the tumult of trying to divorce her / break from Rome would make any subsequent remarriage a lot easier, and he'd have his pick of European princesses.

Catherine ~1532 wasn't in the best shape anyways, certainly it would spare anyone and everyone if instead of trying to shut her away, he plays the part of the doting husband / father during her final illness and after a reasonable period of time decides to remarry. It also makes the situation better for Mary: without his attempts to disinherit her / name her a bastard, her marriage options will be much better, especially if he remarries and has a son.

I think these two go hand-in-hand and are clearly the best course of action. Have Henry accept his fate and wed his daughter off young with the intention of passing the crown directly to a future grandson by Mary -- and then, hey, what do you know, Catherine dies in the 1530s anyway and he's free to try for his own son again.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

A more reasonable Henry VIII would have not wasted a big part of England's royal treasury into the whole Holy Roman Empire affair, and probably would have accepted Christian II's deal of buying Iceland from Denmark.

He'd also probably not fight France as much...

 

[Hastings]

Another possibility is that Mary marries Henry Fitzroy. The pope was willing to grant a disposition for that. However, Fitzroy died of consumption in 1536 which given how tuberculosis works means quite possible he already had it at such a POD. If not, good odds there are children despite the inbreeding as they are relatively close in age and Mary is marrying 20 years younger.

Catherine of Aragon also died that year. Its quite possible Henry still marries Anne Boleyn at that point. Their relationship lasted 7 years before they finally married, relationship probably doesn't deteriorate as fast if they are not married.

 

[eliamartin65]

Another possibility is that Mary marries Henry Fitzroy. The pope was willing to grant a disposition for that. However, Fitzroy died of consumption in 1536 which given how tuberculosis works means quite possible he already had it at such a POD. If not, good odds there are children despite the inbreeding as they are relatively close in age and Mary is marrying 20 years younger.

Catherine of Aragon also died that year. Its quite possible Henry still marries Anne Boleyn at that point. Their relationship lasted 7 years before they finally married, relationship probably doesn't deteriorate as fast if they are not married.

I'd go for this one!

 

[Nuraghe]

He'd also probably not fight France as much...

in reality I think that a more realistic Henry would have recognized the real problem of Otl's military campaigns, namely that he wanted to bite/get more than he could afford ( like conquering all of France or reconquering Gascony or try to subdue the whole of Scotland whilst occupied on another war front at the same time ), and in doing so he always ended up having to give up to his earnings, if instead he had been content with small but constant conquests ( such as conquering 1 or 2 cities per campaign, or improving the defensive system around Boulogne, so as not to always have to reoccupy it in each of his new wars, given that he lost it several times in Otl), then things would have been definitely easier for him and also less expensive, but I can say more, if Enrico had been smarter than Otl, he could have obtained financing from abroad for his "businesses "military, for example from Rome, especially in conflicts against the French or the Protestants ( which the Habsburgs in Otl obtained easily, even if there was the other reason called the fight against Suleiman the Magnificent) without forgetting that if Henry had not run at the imperial elections of 1519, he could have saved other important economic resources to spend elsewhere ( both in the field of foreign and internal policy ) in simple words Henry should be more capable of understanding when to exploit the opportunity of actually earning something and when instead it is better to sit still and wait ( for example when Charles V offered him the chance to gain control over Bremen and surroundings in Otl, if he would help him against the Lutheran princes, which I personally would have accepted, if I were in Henry's shoes )

but I think it would be wise for him, to push for a Scottish marriage, so as to finally break the Edinburgh - Paris axis, protect his northern borders from possible attack while he is occupied in France and finally it would allow him to be taken more seriously in international level in his competition with Charles and Francis, given that his eventual grandson would be the heir of England and Scotland and therefore would have greater resources to use in the event of conflict ( put simply, he is more capable of supporting his aspirations of great power, in comparison with Valois and Habsburg, it is also in relations with Rome, because it would be more difficult for France, Spain or HRE, to convince the curia not to listen to ideas / requests coming from London )

in short, the possibility for him to increase his possessions and at the same time not waste immense quantities of resources ( both human and monetary ) is there, you just need to know how to look for them ( a skill he wasn't very good at 😅😜, in this Katherine has turned out to be more competent, but the same goes for most of his other wives compared to him 😇 )

@Kellan Sullivan @isabella

 

[Fulano]

He'd also probably not fight France as much...

I was talking more about monetary decisions, but yeah, having less fights with France would be an improvement, that's for sure. I mean, a more reasonable Henry VIII wouldn't have asked Francis for a wrestling match and then proceed to lose immediately.