A Land Longing For A Sun

scholar

Banned
This is a timeline that I dreamed about when thinking of one idea on how the world might change: What if the New World was not discovered or very well explored and touched by the Europeans until the mid-1600s? I tried out different PODs from the Crusades, to the conquest of Jerusalem, and even the Mongol invasion. The exact POD was a little murky, which in the end I decided was best in order to make it seem plausible. It’s possible that a POD in 1492 could have had the same result :)rolleyes:) but it would stretch suspension of disbelief to the point where it ruined the basis of the timeline. Also, this timeline is short. This will probably be the only update as I have another, far more important, timeline that I've been working on for years. I will, however, gladly answer any questions and criticisms. The end result of this timeline shows Africa, Oceania, and the Americas divided in very peculiar ways that don't seem likely to happen, with the presence of an Italian colonizing power further adding to the doubt. Basically, there's a reason for every pixel in that map, you only need to ask what it is.

This is also not a very good place to live in.

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The Mongol Empire formed similarly, but not exactly the same, as it did in OTL.

- The Golden Horde was more powerful and caused significant problems in the Balkans and in Poland, but it would decline much faster. The Principality of Muscovy was in a prime position to expand southward and eastward. To the north repeated attempts at conquest resulted in very poor showings of success. The Baltic was always closed to Moscow and later, when the Polish Crusades began to hit full swing, they were forced to abandon almost all of their previous conquests into those areas, keeping only the lands of Tartary after a very long and drawn out peace process. By that time, however, a very sizable Russian population fled the Russian homelands to the east and south to escape the wars and chaos of the north. When Moscow finally began to rebuilt and continue its march east it would find itself with a larger Russian population than it would normally have had in its new conquests.

-The Il Khanate also gathered more power than it did in OTL, but this power became fragile. Barbary Pirates under a very talented admiral, receiving funding from both the Byzantines and the Mamluks, made an attack along the Papal coasts, and indeed raids reached the Holy City of Rome itself, causing massive panic within the Church and in all of Christendom. With no colonial distractions and a relatively peaceful period in Europe, a call for Crusades was given and answered my almost every major power in the realm. The French, Italians, English, Spanish (largely Aragonese), Polish, German, and Scandinavians would all take part in innumerable crusading ventures in the new World. The Il Khanate being more powerful defeated many of the Muslim powers in the region making them weak. When the Crusading armies arrived along the North African coast they found conquests were easier than before. Papal Bulls were drafted giving away large swaths of lands to various Kings and Princes that were fighting to defend the 'honor' of Christendom.

The Byzantines were well known in their support of various Muslim factions. The state had no ill will towards the Catholics and in fact immediately cut off all ties to the North African pirates, and suffered dearly for it. This meant nothing to the Europeans who saw the Byzantines as enemies of the faith and a number of wars were waged on destroying their power completely. There would be seven crusading efforts, the first four of which saw Byzantine Power, so carefully rebuilt by Nicea, Trebizond, and Epirus, destroyed. Epirus itself would be razed to the ground by a group of Polish mercenaries. The Pope as a reward for their righteous duty saw fit to give the land to the Polish Crown. The French marched along the coastline, riding off of the backs of many former Crusading states which still clung desperately to life. Each new crusade saw French power in the region grow larger, but their focus would shift from dealing with the Greeks to the Serbs and Bulgarians. The English, however, had remarkable success in taking the coasts of Anatolia and Morea.

The Byzantine Empire's power in Anatolia came crashing down after the very first crusade. Their hold over the region was growing stronger, but when the Sultanate of Rum collapsed dozens of Turkish factions began to constantly attack their borders. Never committing to fixed battles and always outmaneuvering the Byzantine Armies they quickly managed to take most of Nicea's land in the first few decades. It is possible that they could have resisted the Europeans more successfully if not for their immediate turning on one another. The Sultnate of Rum would barely hold on while Karaman, Ottoman, Kastaman, Adana, and others would each become the most powerful faction, and would seek allies with the Europeans in order to secure their position. The Polish and English had largely assumed control of the Byzantine cities that also desperately sought allies, though this time against the Turks. Eventually the Ottoman and Karaman factions achieved supremacy, destroying all other factions, but by that time the English and Polish were firmly established and they would continue to lose ground to the Europeans. Eventually the Ottomans would conquer Karaman and from then on prevented any further conquest of their lands in the 1720s, but by that time the New World was discovered and interest in Anatolia diminished.

The Il Khanate itself was initially a supporter of the Crusades, offering to help the Europeans many times in finally ridding themselves of the Muslim powers. As Alexandria and Constantinople were crumbling under the European powers, they were able to quickly capture most of the remaining Muslim World in Arabia and would even venture into parts of India, but they the Crusaders and the Il Khanate quickly came into conflict. For starters, the Il Khanate was a Muslim state, no matter how tolerant they were to Christians and other religions that was unacceptable to many of the European crusaders. The Il Khanate was powerful enough to beat back most attempts at attacking them, but when a powerful Chagatai Faction launched an invasion on their lands from the East their attentions became divided and quickly lost a lot of land.

Several major crisises ensued with the the Chagatai-Ilkhan wars, eventually leading to the loss of almost all of Persia. The center of power for the Il Khanate shifted to Mesopotamia, but it was significantly weaker than before. The Europeans grew persistent and for a time the Il Khanate was forced into a corner, but after the use of gun powder came to dominate the field of battle, and using the climate and terrain to their advantage, they were able to recapture their lands and push the Europeans to the coast. They would never be able to push them beyond the coast and out of the Middle East, but over time the Crusading spirit shifted elsewhere and the Khanate was recognized as a legitimate state. Since their unifying of Arabia the Il Khanates would claim the title of Caliph in the late 1600s and would later recapture the western half of Persia. The rise of the Chinese would prevent them from solidifying any further gains. This faction would be the only Mongol Faction to survive to the year 1900 without becoming a puppet.

-The Chagatai Khanate would actually quickly become weaker than in OTL. The Il Khanate and Golden Horde's strength actually was to the detriment of the Chagatai. Further, the Yuan would wage wars against them that further weakened them and pushed them west. When the Golden Horde met its end, however, the Chagatai found itself able to quickly pick up the pieces of the Khanate in central Asia. They would attempt to move into the Russian lands but were blocked. The Chagatai would later try invading both Delhi and the Il Khanate, having extraordinary success in both avenues. The Golden Age of Age of the Chagatai would be in the 1450s - 1500s. After the usurpation of the Yuan things changed. The Chagatai would support Yuan candidates on the Chinese throne and launch attacks against the newly formed Jin Dynasty only to find their armies decisively beaten. Over the next few decades they would slowly be beaten back and forced into puppet status in the 1640s. They still exist in the year 1900, and have even managed to attain domestic autonomy and regional power, but they remain in the tributary system.

-The Yuan Dynasty was far more successful than OTL. It managed to crush Vietnam and add it into its collective. It would also survive for six generations of relatively competent rulers. Even when the Yuan was in decline it never suffered a military defeat and its brief excursion into Japan had the Japanese submit. It was only nominally, but it was clear that even as the Yuan declined it was still dominant. A northern Chinese general by the name of Wei Wuguang would serve with distinction and his daughter would become a consort to the sixth Yuan Emperor. (The Caste System would be altered significantly after the reign of the fourth Emperor.) After the sixth Yuan Emperor died in the space of four years, five Emperors would also die. Poison is suspected and a it resulted in a cruel despotic ruler in the Yuan. He reinforced the Caste System, mismanaged famines, withheld granaries, and raised taxes without restraint. A rebellion of the court quickly took place and We Wuguang would be the one to lead it. Swiftly taking over the state a new Dynasty was declared under the name of the Jin.

The Jin Dynasty would fight off against remnants of the Yuan Dynasty for several decades before marching against the Chagatai and the Il Khanate. The Jin would attain knowledge of gun powder warfare from their wars and would quickly adopt the style of warfare as their own (China retained some of its more Mongolian respect for the latest in military technology) and quickly improved on it. The Chinese would conquer and defeat many powers in Southern Asia, and would take an active interest in manipulating trade and warfare in the region. Almost all of South and Southeast Asia would join the tributary system, a far more imposing system than OTL, largely willingly though some would join by force or because there was no real other option. The Jin would not conquer far off peripheries that were obstinate, but the majority of these states would fall to the Europeans only strengthening their bonds to the Jin. By the year 1900 the Jin Dynasty is feared and respected by all the powers in the world.
-Iberia evolved into a far more Aragon-centric scenario, the Crowns of Castille and Portugal would find themselves falling into the possession of Aragon and for a while Aragon ruled over a united Hispania Peninsula, but after the fall of the Barcelona Dynasty. Discontent over the next ruler, largely seen as illegitimate both by the Spanish and Portuguese courts, Aragon unwilling to let these possessions go would engage in a long war against them. Eventually a peace would be mediated between the two factions, a compromise was formed allowing the creation of a Duchy of Lisboa and of Cadiz. It was an unhappy compromise on both sides leading to centuries of dynastic hostility and warfare. Both duchies would steadily lose ground until the New World was opened after a Sicilian discovered the New World.

The Crusading spirit that was so revived with the Raid of Rome lead to a far more evangelized and hostile Crusading Spirit shared by much of the world. The Aragonese were frustrated in their attempt at conquering the Holy Land and battling the Heathen Mohammedans. Internal squabbling and lack of being able to commit large forces oversees resulted in a rather poor showing in this regard. Very little of 'God's Wealth of Land' was reclaimed by the Aragonese Catholics. There remained a deep sense of resentment towards this fact. When the New World opened a new avenue for expansion was given to them and they took it with Gusto. Initially the continents of the New World were filled with almost every power's colonies and armies. Those that could not afford to make the trek themselves hired others to carry their forces to the New World. Many of the nations either by distance or lack of commitment found the New World slowly closed off by those with the resources to continue onward.

The Lesser Antilles would be divided amongst 5 powers, and the greater Antilles by three, but the New World itself found itself into the hands of but three major powers: The Sicilians (Or the Kingdom of Naples) which had received by Papal Mandate the lands of the Maya and the Aztec and though copious amounts of foreign legions and weapons far more advanced than OTL were able to conquer the land amidst the plague and confusion that initially followed. The English, to the North, fought against the French, Dutch, Scots, and Sicilians for the realm. All would fall except for Fort Alfonso, which would become roughly the size of Rhode Island surrounded by an entire continent of English supremacy. The South American continent was more oddly more contested than the North, many along the northern coast saw movement from the Antilles to the mainland as a natural progression. The Aragonese were quickly able to establish South America as a realm of their crown by Papal Mandate, but only after they had defeated the Swedish and English garrisons there. The With the English all claims to the land were surrendered beyond a coastal strip in exchange for all lands in the North American continent. The Swedes would be left with a tiny nook of land, but would be respected in their colonial wishes in the region.

The Aragonese found the largest number of colonials and crusaders not to be native Aragonese and Catalans, but rather the Portuguese and the Castillians fleeing their impoverished lands. Many shortly after arrival would march deep inland in order to be as free from the Aragonese as possible. In addition many English, Swedes, French, and Sicilians would migrate into their lands. In the early 1800s a revolt against the crown of Aragon by most of the land owning elite and the church of the continent lead to the establishment of the Empire of New Aragon. This new nation would be fragile with communications being strained between the various parts of the Empire and more than once threatened with complete and total collapse. While initially set on conquering the 'Foreign' lands to the north this quickly fell out of favor as domestic issues plagued the empire. The first constitution limiting the power of the Monarch had its origins in New Aragon as a compromise between Church and Noble factions in the Empire.

The division of Africa was trickier, and perhaps even more arbitrary. The moment Africa was circumnavigated wars began on the Crusading 'Rights' to these territories, largely believing this just to be a new continent to conquer. Initially the division resembled a checkerboard of different interests in which every power within the Christian (Catholic) world had a piece, but very quickly this compromise lead to war as one side exaggerated their own claims and the powers which had no ability to maintain any gains against a hostile maritime power. The Kingdom of France would see the entirety of the continent be theirs, but the war of the Holy League prevented such action. Still, the French came away with most of the continent. Aragon had the second largest portion gaining much of Sub-Saharan west Africa. England, Poland, Naples, and Sweden would all receive various pieces of the continent as well. The Sultanate of Morocco would be the only power to resist attempts at conquest until the year 1900 A.D. and the areas formerly under Moroccan control represent the only region in the continent where the French recognize the right for Muslims to have freedom of worship.

The other powers would have varying degrees of acceptance towards the native inhabitants. The discovery of Christians within the African continent was a startling discovery, but when they proved apprehensive about joining the Catholic Church many would be persecuted. Proselytizing and Crusades against tribes still beyond the reach of the colonial authorities is a fact of life in Africa. By now the English, Sicilian, Polish, and Swedes have more or less solidified their holdings in a fragile network of diplomacy, theocracy, and military might. The Aragonese would have an exceptionally difficult time with West Africa, disease constantly plagued adventures into the highlands and the lands furthest east were all but unknown to the Kingdom until the 1800s. After New Aragon rebelled against the Crown of Aragon fear gripped Aragon that this would happen to its other colonial possessions. The portion of West Africa had always been a difficult one to maintain and the crusading efforts were always expensive. The large number of Mullattos also was a cause for concern as many within the mainland doubted their loyalty to the state and the King.

After the establishment of New Aragon as an Empire, Aragon reciprocated by declaring itself an Empire. The name change didn't truly have any substantial repercussions, but after ten years a succession crisis plagued to destroy the Empire. A compromise was formed in which a new 'Kingdom of New Catalonia' would be formed in West Africa. This Kingdom would have complete and total domestic autonomy, but would ultimately be answerable to the Crown of Aragon and cede all right to foreign relations to the Emperor. This compromise was seen as weakening Aragonese authority too much, but it allowed for its continued survival. The Kingdom of New Catalonia would receive hundreds of thousands of refugees from the South American continent who would provide a large number of Crown loyalists in the region. With this new influx of manpower and a far more centered domestic authority efforts to control and combat the various tribes, emirates, and Sultanates that had maintained independence thus far. The success of New Catalonia has made the French consider doing so with their own extensive possessions.

-France would become the world's first superpower, but its position would be inflated and overextended providing one does not perceive China to be one. France would be among the first nations to fully commit to the Crusades seeing it as both a political, but also a cultural, tool in order to expand their authority after their inheritance of the crown of Burgundy. North Africa and western Rome would come in steps and stages of conquest. Oddly it would not be the Mamluks or the Romans to give them the most trouble, but rather the Sultanate of Morocco, which had begun the process of consuming a large portion of the Barbary Coast. While the former would prove to be paper tigers, Morocco was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Their ferocity in battle and their ability to utilize the terrain around them earned both fear and respect from the Crusaders, and should more of the Islamic World show such strength it is possible, and even likely, that the Renewed Crusades would lose all drive as quick immediate gains would be replaced by slow, very expensive, wars of attrition.

France also had to face the growing threat of the Habsburg monarchy, which fairly quickly absorbed the Luxembourg Dynasty and was able to plant many of its relatives amongst the Kings and Dukes of Europe. The Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania would have an Austrian line of rulers since the 1600s and the two factions would be allies ever since. Their campaigns against the Golden Horde, which had ruined the Luxembourgs, only made them stronger developing cavalry to be feared. The Austrians and the French would combat one another for centuries in small scale engagements. Austria would earn the right to Savoy's inheritance, but France would find much of the Lowlands and Rhineland to fall into their grasp. The House of Orleans would provide a largely Euro-centric approach, but once it died out and was replaced by the House of Anjou, France took a radical turn away from Europe and took a focused approach, waging wars not to improve their holdings in the immediately accessible world, but waging wards to gain lands that were not even discovered.

After the division of the African continent France immediately pioneered greater conquests and exploration quickly reaching the Indian states and later entering into the Majaphite Confederacy, quickly controlling all of the east Indies and claiming the Australian continent to themselves. The Aragonese were also in the region and a compromise was drawn up giving any 'future discovered lands south and east' of Australia to them. They had believed that there weren't any other lands and if they were they would be frozen because of the common belief that an entire continent the size of Eurasia was covered in Ice to Australia's south. Instead New Zealand and Tasmania would fall to Aragon as well as hundreds of smaller islands that proved to be halfway stations allowing them to access these regions with only minimal interference with France.

France, before it even knew what it had elsewhere, attempted to conquer the wealthy realm of India. It was not without competition either, the Aragonese and English were major competitors and even the Sicilians would establish a port in the region. The fantastic collapse of Delhi saw the rise of hundreds of states, many of which were eager for support from a foreign patron in order to conquer each other. The European Powers would do this and would launch various Crusades against the Islamic states. Some rulers would fake baptisms in order to appeal to their aid. The Europeans gobbled up most of Southern India after four decades of diplomacy, wars, and deceit. India, however, was far too populated in order to withstand the oppressive theocratic administrations of the Christians and French rule in the region collapsed. Many of these states would be supported by the Chinese and when the Europeans attempted reconquest they needed only to show obeisance in order for some of the most advanced soldiers in the world would march to their aid.

The collapse of European rule did not merely open the door to Chinese domination in the region, but also opened the door to a new ideology. A new strain of Hinduism led to the evolution of the belief in certain rights that every individual should have (except for the untouchables), including such rights as freedom of worship and language, which were robbed from them under the Europeans. The Formation of a number of moderate governments, some of which even transitioned into republics, came from the end of Theocratic rule. This group would also come to oppose Chinese domination, seeing it as merely another form of conquest, forming an Alliance of the Free States of Indus, as shown by the outline in red. The concept of rights afforded to all peoples within a state quickly spread, but this spread would be blocked outside of India where it would merely be seen as 'Unchristian' by the European powers. Christians themselves in Indian rule were still afforded protection, though this was mostly because of their technical know-how rather than any real degree of tolerance.

France would find a way to avoid this problem in the vast islands to the east, those that were not under Chinese protection fell to France. France's colonial policy was the same as India's initially, but after rule in India collapsed beyond all hope of repair they altered their policies in Indonesia becoming more tolerant and only providing incentives to be Christian (Catholic) and speak French instead of punishing those who don't often times with imprisonment and death. The policy was surprisingly successful as most had thought such a policy was doomed to failure for being too soft on ignorant savages and Godless heathens. Many still believe this to be so, and by the year 1900 many still call for its repeal, especially after Confucianism started growing in popularity in the island of Borneo.

-The Isles of Britain evolved differently from OTL, England would have very little problem conquering most of the island of Ireland, but at home many pieces of the country started falling apart. Religious tug-a-wars between the Nobility and the Church saw a collapse of English government which was limiting the control of the Church in persecuting what it deemed heretical and it saw the rise of two independent duchies who sought to maintain proper authority of the crown. The English government lacked the will or the stability to engage them and let them go. Oddly this did not stop the drive for colonization, in fact it only propelled it forward. Tens of thousands fleeing religious persecution left for the New World, and while English authority on the homeland was tenuous, abroad it remained strong in much the same way that a single state can prosper even as the central government crumbles. England would take the Lion's share of the New World and would take decent chunks of the Muslim world. Crusades against the Turks were a fact of life until the 1700s, where the focus changed to India. England was not so easy to give up on India and would still wage wars in order to reestablish their control over the region. Ceylon remains a British possession.

-The Empire of Scandinavia, or the Crown of Sweden- The crown of Denmark was joined with the Crown of Norway for many years. Sweden itself managed to remain free from the union after its initial severing. The Crown of Denmark, however, would suffer near constant dynastic collapse. One Dynasty would die out and another would take its place from the Germans to the Polish to the French. Sweden itself always made claim on the crown of Denmark and Norway since it had close ties with that the first few dynasties. Eventually they won out, only because the next person to succeed the throne was an even less popular choice for the Danes. Shortly after the union Sweden did surprisingly well, forging ties with the Poles and Austrians. The Polish Crusades would involve more than just the Polish Cavalry, the Swedes and Austrians would also participate in the wars to root out and destroy the remaining vestiges of Orthodox Heresy.

In this goal the Swedish armies were able to take control over much of the lands formerly belonging to Novgorod, which very early one surrendered to the invading armies. The Poles too, would make tremendous gains against the Russians, and would gain a large amount of converts when the famines came and only the Catholics would be fed. The overall goal of the crusades, however, ended in failure. Orthodoxy was not destroyed, and only grew in power in the wake of the destruction. The Crusades came to an end when Poland finally recognized the Russian Rite of Muscovy, but not before both Austria and Sweden had abandoned the war effort after the second schism. Both nations would give full rights to their Orthodox populations for private worship and local churches. Poland would continue its own internal efforts to convert the populous and even in the year 1900 continues to try to convert the sizable population of Orthodox followers.

- Any questions?

A Land Without A Sun - AH.png
 
Interesting though the idea that either independent Duchies could come into being in England or that a England weak enough to let independent Duchies come into being could go on a colonising spree is kinda odd. Willing emigrants does not equal the ability to acquire a colonial empire and hold it against hostile powers.
 
Interesting though the idea that either independent Duchies could come into being in England or that a England weak enough to let independent Duchies come into being could go on a colonising spree is kinda odd. Willing emigrants does not equal the ability to acquire a colonial empire and hold it against hostile powers.

Or holding in against the likely dissatifaction of its immigrant population, for that matter...if George III's Britain couldn't hold onto its colonies, how likely is it that the lets-Cornwall-push-it-around England is going to hold onto this Behemoth till 1900? (Or indeed manage to settle all of it - when exactly did First Contact with the Americas take place in this TL, anyway?)

Bruce
 
A few things:

The Principality of Muscovy was in a prime position to expand southward and eastward. To the north repeated attempts at conquest resulted in very poor showings of success.


Why? The Russian states in that area were quite thinly populated and unable to grow much larger on their own due to backwards agriculture. The Novgorod state is unlikely to last.

The Il Khanate itself was initially a supporter of the Crusades, offering to help the Europeans many times in finally ridding themselves of the Muslim powers. As Alexandria and Constantinople were crumbling under the European powers, they were able to quickly capture most of the remaining Muslim World in Arabia and would even venture into parts of India, but they the Crusaders and the Il Khanate quickly came into conflict.


Me thinks that the Muslim Il Khanate would have some trouble about Christians taking Arabia, where the Holy Cities of Islam are...

.
The Chagatai would support Yuan candidates on the Chinese throne and launch attacks against the newly formed Jin Dynasty only to find their armies decisively beaten. Over the next few decades they would slowly be beaten back and forced into puppet status in the 1640s. They still exist in the year 1900, and have even managed to attain domestic autonomy and regional power, but they remain in the tributary system.


Why would the Chinese take the dynasty name that had recently been that of another bunch of steppe invaders? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Dynasty_(1115–1234)

In the early 1800s a revolt against the crown of Aragon by most of the land owning elite and the church of the continent lead to the establishment of the Empire of New Aragon. This new nation would be fragile with communications being strained between the various parts of the Empire and more than once threatened with complete and total collapse. While initially set on conquering the 'Foreign' lands to the north this quickly fell out of favor as domestic issues plagued the empire. The first constitution limiting the power of the Monarch had its origins in New Aragon as a compromise between Church and Noble factions in the Empire.


Frankly, it's holding together in one piece is simply implausible, unless railroads and telegraphs were invented much earlier than OTL, and even then it seems iffy.

The division of Africa was trickier, and perhaps even more arbitrary.


Yeaaah - the interior is simply _not_ going to colonized until a fairly advanced tropical medicine is developed. And really, no colonial sub-divisions in such huge areas?


Bruce
 
Also,

1. May want to rethink that Russian tributary in Turkestan with maybe 2 camels and a guy in a fuzzy hat.
2. Is the yellow the Chagatai? Lost their old core territory entirely, then.
3. Is that Polish eastern Anatolia? :eek:
4. What are those two lil' independent bits in Iberia?
5. Why so fragmented, SE Asia?
6. Again, Brits can't control Cornwall, yet they hold onto Constantinople?

Bruce
 

scholar

Banned
When I made that question a few hours ago I honestly thought it would have only gathered one or two responses and I'd need to wait a day in order to get the second. I'm honestly pleasantly surprised by this.

Interesting though the idea that either independent Duchies could come into being in England or that a England weak enough to let independent Duchies come into being could go on a colonising spree is kinda odd. Willing emigrants does not equal the ability to acquire a colonial empire and hold it against hostile powers.
The two duchies formed as a result of a civil war between the religious order (The Papacy) and the nobility after the central government started falling apart. This is a world where religious authority gained a renewed sense of importance and fanaticism in Europe after the city of Rome itself was threatened by Muslims. The lack of the New World allowed the crusading spirit to be renewed and take hold of society again, and early on this would be fostered by the ruling class as both a political and cultural tool to expand their power over the populous and over new lands. When this religious fervor became too strong for the nobility to control anymore and saw the rise of church factions in the influence of the Kingdoms, this saw revolts within England itself. The two duchies were already there, they just became free with the civil war and exerted their independence. Once the Church faction won out, the duchies remained free. The government was unwilling to force renewed conflicts right after decades of civil war. Their independence just became a fact of life after enough time. A Holy War will always gather more support from a heavily religious society than a war against their fellow countrymen and their fellow religious individuals.

There's a good idea in here, but it needs work.
I'm always open to suggestions!

Or holding in against the likely dissatifaction of its immigrant population, for that matter...if George III's Britain couldn't hold onto its colonies, how likely is it that the lets-Cornwall-push-it-around England is going to hold onto this Behemoth till 1900? (Or indeed manage to settle all of it - when exactly did First Contact with the Americas take place in this TL, anyway?)
George III could easily have held the one colony out of all his colonies that rebelled against him. The difference here is that disatisfaction comes mostly in Britain, and not so much outside of it in the colonies. England never said "Do not settle beyond the Appalachian Mountain Range" nor did they increase taxes (or keep them raised if they were massively unpopular). And Cromwell and the other duchy don't push England around, they try to stay as far away from insulting them as possible.

The colonial territories are not accurately shown... This is what Africa should look like:

attachment.php


Can I safely guess that the Golden Horde got stronger due to a stabilized line of succession?
This would be true in all four of the major Khanates, though the Chagatai would be the slowest to catch on and the quickest to abandon it when the Chinese came knocking. Almost all of the central American states are Chagatai Remnants.

A few things:
First I'd like to say its a pleasure to have you comment on one of my timelines. I do not believe I have had this honor yet.

Why? The Russian states in that area were quite thinly populated and unable to grow much larger on their own due to backwards agriculture. The Novgorod state is unlikely to last.
Harsh winters, wet springs and autumns, and brief summers. The northern Russians were very resilient and determined to maintain their independence and as Muscovy was much more easily able to expand into a collapsing Golden Horde they eventually stopped trying.

Sweden was able to take over and dominate this region for those exact reasons.

Me thinks that the Muslim Il Khanate would have some trouble about Christians taking Arabia, where the Holy Cities of Islam are...
Its more complex than that.The Il Khanate was the traditional rival of both the Mamluks and the Golden Horde, and was often looking to increase its relations with the Christian powers. It wanted crusades, it wanted to support them, it even offered free horses. Numerous attempts at forging alliances failed. With renewed Crusading spirit they don't fail. The Khanate, even after its conversion to Islam, offered the city of Jerusalem to the christians if they agreed to aid them. Arabia, however, wouldn't really be invaded. Egypt, Syria, Judea, and the North African coasts, they would be the main areas of excursion. Penetrating into Arabia only occurred after the Il Khanate became too weak to resist effectively, and they would all be pushed out after the use of gunpowder became common in warfare.

Why would the Chinese take the dynasty name that had recently been that of another bunch of steppe invaders? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Dyn...5%E2%80%931234)
There are over a dozen characters that represent the word "Jin", and there are other Chinese Dynasties that have the name Jin attached to them. In addition dynastic selection of names is born out of location, the year, and auspicious dates. There's no reason why Jin would be a bad name, anymore than Wei would be a bad name because the nomads took that name as well.

Frankly, it's holding together in one piece is simply implausible, unless railroads and telegraphs were invented much earlier than OTL, and even then it seems iffy.
Couldn't the same statement be made about Russia before the advent of such technologies, or Rome, or the Tang which dared to invade Afghanistan and send out troops to the Caspian? Or the Mongol Empire? I'm not saying that it would be a centralized state, I'm stating quite the opposite: Its unstable, it already almost collapsed a number of times, early desires for expansion were dashed by physical realities, and so forth. In the future, if communication does not improve between the parts of the empire, it probably will collapse. That being said, its the year 1900 and it gained its independence in the 1800s, railroads and telegraphs do exist and are in use.

Yeaaah - the interior is simply _not_ going to colonized until a fairly advanced tropical medicine is developed. And really, no colonial sub-divisions in such huge areas?
Such medicines are there, this is the year 1900. By this time Africa was almost completely under the control of European powers. Here is the map again:

attachment.php


Compare it to this:

attachment.php


OTL shows greater expansion than mine. :p

Also, there are colonial divisions. I just didn't put them in...

Also,

1. May want to rethink that Russian tributary in Turkestan with maybe 2 camels and a guy in a fuzzy hat.
2. Is the yellow the Chagatai? Lost their old core territory entirely, then.
3. Is that Polish eastern Anatolia? :eek:
4. What are those two lil' independent bits in Iberia?
5. Why so fragmented, SE Asia?
6. Again, Brits can't control Cornwall, yet they hold onto Constantinople?

Bruce

1. Perhaps, the only reason why they are still there is because they are Orthodox and can be used to mess with Central Asian affairs without stirring up trouble with the Jin.
2. Everything in Central Asia inbetween the dominant Muslim Indian state and the Il Khanate are Chagatai fraction states. The Chagatai inside Persia have largely assimilated into Persian culture and call themselves "Shah" more so than "Khagan".
3. Yes! :D Polish Egypt too.
4. Duchy of Lisboa and Duchy of Cadiz, they were larger in the past and largely make up the pieces of Portugal and Castille-Leon that broke away from the Aragonese court after the extinction of the male Barcelona line.
5. Its a bit complex, but it can ultimately be explained by bringing up the tributary system and a divide and conquer approach by the Chinese.
6. See above, and if you need more I'll do my best to explain it. :)
 
If England is unable to even reassert control over two small duchies, it won't be able to assert a jot of control over territory far away from England.

Even if they're independent in the short run, that doesn't explain the long run..
 
Actually, China would have no interest in places that are backwater to them like OTL Luzon and South East Asia wouldn't be weak against China, they hate China and the Mongols.
 

scholar

Banned
If England is unable to even reassert control over two small duchies, it won't be able to assert a jot of control over territory far away from England.

Even if they're independent in the short run, that doesn't explain the long run..
I'm flexible and can easily change it, but I don't think you really understand why they are independent.

They are not independent because England is too weak to conquer them, or are they independent because they can push the state around. They are independent because when they became independent England was in the middle of a civil war between the nobility and the clergy, and after decades of bloodshed England didn't want to start another war with the duchies to bring them back into the state. As time went on the goal of "conquer them later" gradually dissipated and their attentions were refocused abroad.
 

scholar

Banned
Actually, China would have no interest in places that are backwater to them like OTL Luzon and South East Asia wouldn't be weak against China, they hate China and the Mongols.
The conquest of those regions have their own story, taken in by the Yuan and maintained by the Jin.

Southeast Asia did not hate China. That's decidedly modern feeling. In the past, under the Yuan, Ming, and Qing, almost every single Southeast Asian state would provide tribute at least once to the Chinese court, the Sultanate of Malacca would actually receive defense by the Ming court in a war with a neighboring state. It is modern animosity. You might as well say that the Japanese hated China too, when in fact the Japanese spared the Chinese after the Mongol invasion, while killing everyone else out of respect for the Chinese. In addition the Japanese always strived to have an equal status with China and was mostly built off of Tang and native influences.
 
The conquest of those regions have their own story, taken in by the Yuan and maintained by the Jin.

Southeast Asia did not hate China. That's decidedly modern feeling. In the past, under the Yuan, Ming, and Qing, almost every single Southeast Asian state would provide tribute at least once to the Chinese court, the Sultanate of Malacca would actually receive defense by the Ming court in a war with a neighboring state. It is modern animosity. You might as well say that the Japanese hated China too, when in fact the Japanese spared the Chinese after the Mongol invasion, while killing everyone else out of respect for the Chinese. In addition the Japanese always strived to have an equal status with China and was mostly built off of Tang and native influences.

Yuan failed to conquer South East Asia because of the Climate and another is the Vietnamese defeated the Yuans many times due to the Climate.
 
Yuan failed to conquer South East Asia because of the Climate and another is the Vietnamese defeated the Yuans many times due to the Climate.

You also forgot to mention the Majapahit Empire which defeated the Mongols at Java. The same Majapahit Empire which forced the Sri Vijayans to migrate into the islands which would bear their name, Visayas.
 
I'm flexible and can easily change it, but I don't think you really understand why they are independent.

They are not independent because England is too weak to conquer them, or are they independent because they can push the state around. They are independent because when they became independent England was in the middle of a civil war between the nobility and the clergy, and after decades of bloodshed England didn't want to start another war with the duchies to bring them back into the state. As time went on the goal of "conquer them later" gradually dissipated and their attentions were refocused abroad.

AS time went on, England's rulers will not happily tolerate their independence unless they are too weak to do something about it. This is an England which has been willing to bother with Ireland, it'll bother with integral parts of England.
 

scholar

Banned
Yuan failed to conquer South East Asia because of the Climate and another is the Vietnamese defeated the Yuans many times due to the Climate.
This is relevant... how? The Mongols had very little experience in this type of warfare when they invaded Vietnam, after their initial invasion and being beaten back after killing tens of thousands of Vietnamese with the Mongols only providing a limited attempt at conquering them, Vietnam agreed to become a protectorate of the Yuan Dynasty and paid tribute until the Yuan was destroyed.

You also forgot to mention the Majapahit Empire which defeated the Mongols at Java. The same Majapahit Empire which forced the Sri Vijayans to migrate into the islands which would bear their name, Visayas.
Is this supposed to be an argument against the current Tributary system? Its the opposite. The fact that the Mongols were even able to wage war in the island of Java should speak mountains about their extension with only two emperors in control of China, one of which being a rather poor ruler. In this timeline the Mongols get six competent rulers which expanded their authority throughout Southeast Asia. In OTL they had already gathered the obeisance of most of the region.

AS time went on, England's rulers will not happily tolerate their independence unless they are too weak to do something about it. This is an England which has been willing to bother with Ireland, it'll bother with integral parts of England.
Not weak rulers in such a way to compromise administrative efficiency, only weak rulers in so far as there is a strong clergy, in place of a strong nobility.
 
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