A/H challenge/question--less graffiti

[NHBL]

I am tired of the graffiti vandalism everywhere, with so called "artists" marking up everything in sight. When I was a kid, it was much less common; now it's everywhere. Even areas where these vandals are not common, the damage they do presents itself every time a freight train rumbles by.

What would it take to make graffiti significantly less common today?

 

[KokkenKunten]

A different human nature and lack of readily accessible alkyd - based mediums in rattle cans.

Even simple scratchings are a form of self expression / social comment - despite the whinings of so - called 'art critics', which appear inherent to the human condition. Graffiti has existed for thousands of years - probably since humans began building in stone and other, 'long life' materials. There are some very witty examples from nearly all ancient cultures, and at least one written language which we know about solely because of surviving graffiti.

 

[NHBL]

Well, spray paint has been around for a long time, and with it, crude images, but the big fancy ones are newer. I know you can't get rid of markers saying "Thug gang 1's turf" but these big fancy ones are much newer than spray cans. When I was a kid, railroad cars were not marred with graffiti, nor was it ubiquitous. When I was in high school, I remember one group being sentenced to clean up a bunch of walls after getting caught.
It would always be around, but it became widespread long after cheap spray paint.

 

[KokkenKunten]

It would always be around, but it became widespread long after cheap spray paint.

Perhaps social exclusion became more widespread long after cheap spray paint, directly fuelling those problems to which you refer. I dunno, maybe some folk feel an increased need for self expression & social commentary in response to these perceived societal changes, huh?

Maybe you have the issue backwards, concentrating on the effect, rather than the cause. I'd consider some of the social ills, which may or may not be the cause of its increased prevalence, far more germane. Besides which, an awful lot of graffiti clearly IS art - or do you hold no truck with that concept at all?

As a point of reference, I'm a middle - aged English dude, btw.

 

[NHBL]

Perhaps social exclusion became more widespread long after cheap spray paint, directly fuelling those problems to which you refer. I dunno, maybe some folk feel an increased need for self expression & social commentary in response to these perceived societal changes, huh?

Maybe you have the issue backwards, concentrating on the effect, rather than the cause. I'd consider some of the social ills, which may or may not be the cause of its increased prevalence, far more germane. Besides which, an awful lot of graffiti clearly IS art - or do you hold no truck with that concept at all?

As a point of reference, I'm a middle - aged English dude, btw.

Well, the social ills are endemic, and have been since humanity has been around, but graffiti on the current scale is much newer. As for it being art, to me, if it's done on someone else's property without permission, it's vandalism. I know the owner of the gym I went to did not appreciate having it all over the gym wall some years ago. It took time and money for her to clean up her property from the defacement. Graffiti on railroad cars can obscure the reflective markings that make them visible to drivers at night, making a collision more likely.

Regardless of the merits of painting people's property without permission, what would it take to make it less common and less acceptable?

 

[KokkenKunten]

Regardless of the merits of painting people's property without permission, what would it take to make it less common and less acceptable?

*sigh* The opening line of my initial response IS my answer. Everything else is mere elaboration.

Acceptability is subjective. Short of banning every possible way of leaving your mark on a wall and / or cutting off the hands of convicted graffitistas, I don't really see how you decrease its presence whilst people feel they have something to say or rail against, or merely feel their neighbourhood needs brightening up.

 

[NHBL]

Cutting off hands would be overly harsh, but perhaps a punishment such as having to clean up the mess they made would deter at least some of it? When graffiti was put on the gym, the culprits were caught clearly on camera, but the police did nothing.

 

[KokkenKunten]

Perhaps the local P.D. feel that their not unlimited resources (both human and financial) are best deployed on other, more pressing matters? Just a thought..

 

[Milo]

In the UK there's less graffatti than there has been years mainly because bored teenagers have got better things to do than write there name on an old skate park. Give people things to do and express themselves and there will be less. Graffatti in some forms as always existed need only look at Pompeii. Graffatti today is mostly just that remenants of bored teenagers and artists trying something to stand out.

 

[Indicus]

Graffiti exists in ancient places, such as Pompeii. I don't think you can eliminate it.

 

[Tallil2long]

Yup, there's always been graffiti.

For those who haven't been around all that long, though, you might be surprised to learn that it has become vastly more common within the last 30 years. By at least an order of magnitude. I was there, and I've seen the difference.

To prevent this, you either need a government that is consistently diligent and uncompromising towards vandals (troubling, as this implies a police-state mindset), or else you need to prevent younger people from elevating their own desire for expression and recognition, over respect for other people's (and public) property.

Because that's what grafitti represents, in the end: the elevation of Self over Others. "My right to make my marks wherever I want, trumps everyone else's rights."

i know how to prevent that at the individual level: teach your children not to be narcissistic, destructive little gits with no respect for others. But how to prevent it on a societal level, I dunno.

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Cheap teflon-like coatings for vehicles and buildings, that paint won't stick to.

 

[Phyrx]

i know how to prevent that at the individual level: teach your children not to be narcissistic, destructive little gits with no respect for others. But how to prevent it on a societal level, I dunno.

Today's youth culture is not some spontaneous, uncontrollable, unstoppable force of nature. Quite the opposite - it has been entirely fostered, promoted and corralled by our media and entertainment industry. The graffiti issue would be entirely unheard of in any sane, healthy society, where authority, law, and order are supported by those who have influence over contemporary culture and social mores. This is, of course, the actual difference between today's state of affairs and the way things were in the recent past.

Other than that I think you're spot on, though I can't say I'm "troubled" by the thought of law enforcement enforcing the law. We have a graffiti problem because people know they can get away with it. Start implementing more widespread CCTV and sentencing vandals to hard labor and people will pretty quickly decide it's not worth the risk.

 

[Tallil2long]

Today's youth culture is not some spontaneous, uncontrollable, unstoppable force of nature.

Snip.

Other than that I think you're spot on, though I can't say I'm "troubled" by the thought of law enforcement enforcing the law. We have a graffiti problem because people know they can get away with it. Start implementing more widespread CCTV and sentencing vandals to hard labor and people will pretty quickly decide it's not worth the risk.

I agree completely. The reason I say that I don't know how to fix it on a societal level is because I do not see how we could, at this point, plausibly change or silence those harmful influences you mentioned. Other than counteract them by the effective teaching of the great majority of parents, which clearly isn't happening.

I don't find enforcement of the law troubling, at all. But if law enforcement was to counteract the pervasive influences you mentioned, and truly deter the many, many young people who have fallen prey to them, the police presence would have to be so omnipresent and so harsh in its punishments, that I think it would represent a police state. And I don't really prefer to live in one of those (although if things got bad enough, I and many others might reluctantly accept it; who can say?).

 

[Apollo 20]

Yup, there's always been graffiti.

For those who haven't been around all that long, though, you might be surprised to learn that it has become vastly more common within the last 30 years. By at least an order of magnitude. I was there, and I've seen the difference.

To prevent this, you either need a government that is consistently diligent and uncompromising towards vandals (troubling, as this implies a police-state mindset), or else you need to prevent younger people from elevating their own desire for expression and recognition, over respect for other people's (and public) property.

Because that's what grafitti represents, in the end: the elevation of Self over Others. "My right to make my marks wherever I want, trumps everyone else's rights."

i know how to prevent that at the individual level: teach your children not to be narcissistic, destructive little gits with no respect for others. But how to prevent it on a societal level, I dunno.

More common where? My observation in the US is that the problem has existed since I was a kid in the 1970s, peaked in the '90s and has fallen off since then.

 

[Tallil2long]

More common where? My observation in the US is that the problem has existed since I was a kid in the 1970s, peaked in the '90s and has fallen off since then.

My observation is that 30 years ago one effectively NEVER saw a railroad car with grafitti; 15 years ago one saw a fair number; and now considerably more than half of the ones I see (no matter what state I happen to be in, or whether urban or rural) have graffiti.

30 years ago I NEVER saw graffiti in small or middling towns; 15 years ago I started to see a few; now there is quite a bit.

30 years ago I saw numerous scattered graffiti in Little Rock; 15 years ago I saw a lot, but in limited areas; now I see far more and it isn't anywhere near as limited in geographical range.

Now, I haven't spent a lot of time in truly large cities. Perhaps it is past its peak in NY, LA, etc. But in smaller cities, large and small towns, and the trains that pass through such areas, it is significantly greater than in the 90's.

By my observations, anyway. I'm not omnipresent, so I can't guarantee that it is this way everywhere.

 

[Tallil2long]

More common where? My observation in the US is that the problem has existed since I was a kid in the 1970s, peaked in the '90s and has fallen off since then.

Of course, if graffiti is past it's peak in urban areas, my assertion about declining respect for others is still very probably valid. Not much in the way of "flash mobs" and "knockout game" in the 90's. There were more driveby shootings, but I note that the murder rate in many cities is rapidly closing back up on the 90's peak...

 

[Apollo 20]

My observation is that 30 years ago one effectively NEVER saw a railroad car with grafitti; 15 years ago one saw a fair number; and now considerably more than half of the ones I see (no matter what state I happen to be in, or whether urban or rural) have graffiti.

30 years ago I NEVER saw graffiti in small or middling towns; 15 years ago I started to see a few; now there is quite a bit.

30 years ago I saw numerous scattered graffiti in Little Rock; 15 years ago I saw a lot, but in limited areas; now I see far more and it isn't anywhere near as limited in geographical range.

Now, I haven't spent a lot of time in truly large cities. Perhaps it is past its peak in NY, LA, etc. But in smaller cities, large and small towns, and the trains that pass through such areas, it is significantly greater than in the 90's.

By my observations, anyway. I'm not omnipresent, so I can't guarantee that it is this way everywhere.

This makes sense, since I was thinking of large cities like NY and LA...

 

[Roger II]

Where are you from? In a lot of larger cities graffiti of the type you describe(large-scale spray-tagging or other work) has disappeared or gone down outside of institutional contexts(it being an irony that graffiti has now been claimed by the fine arts, to the point where at least one graffiti artist has become so prominent that people whose properties are tagged by him will sometimes _prise out the walls he tagged_ and sell the work for astronomical sums). Anyhow, if your objection is to this, the answer is probably in curbing the period in graffiti that produced the kind of large-scale work in the 80s. To do this, it would probably require more investment in urban areas and gentrification at an earlier date. A larger discussion of why this might happen is outside of the scope of this thread, but possible candidates include no white flight, an avoided MLK assassination, greater investment in African-American communities, stabilization in central and South America in the 70s and 80s stemming the flow of drugs north*, avoiding the creation of the "Rust belt" and so on.

*Not in the *CIA INVENTED COCAINE SENSE* so much as in the sense of political instability feeding the drug trade.

 

[The Professor]

The issue might be one of access. 30ya graffitos would not have had access to train carriages and the like. With the increased interconnection of urban areas and urban migration it's just more noticeable by those who disapprove?