a few questions (japan and Rommel)
- Thread starter Ethan387
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) after the war. but Hitler still comes to power. Would the japanese still invade china?a) In short, yes. The Japanese had been playing proxy games in China for decades. They had a vested interest in stemming the rise of a unified state, even if that meant full-on intervention.
b) Rommel was an apathetic, old school military type, with little time for ideology. He actually took it upon himself to criticize Hitler's removal of Jews from the military.
b) Rommel was an apathetic, old school military type, with little time for ideology. He actually took it upon himself to criticize Hitler's removal of Jews from the military.
mowque
Banned
That being said, he didn't have any issues with the obvious horrible crimes going on. So don't expect him to be the conscience of your story or anything.
Does forbidding them from taking place in areas under his command count as having issues with them? Rommel was a complex man and he is too often whitewashed, but it seems inaccurate to say he had no issues at all with what was going on.
cubefreak123
Banned
In regards to China, yes. Japan decided to take up the position of head of East Asia from China after the European powers turned it into their playground. In their paranoia to avoid being next, they decided to become a great power themselves then proceeded to expand their influence to remove the Europeans from the region. I think you can call it "victory disease" after they beat Russia that made Japan so militant (although WWI and the depression didn't help matters).
Japan invading the DEI was just so they could continue their campaign in China. Invading the DEI (while it would have happened eventually) was largely in response to the US issuing an oil embargo on Japan in response to what was happening in China. The hard part for you is going to be getting the US involved eventually since Japan won't be reliant upon them for oil.
Japan invading the DEI was just so they could continue their campaign in China. Invading the DEI (while it would have happened eventually) was largely in response to the US issuing an oil embargo on Japan in response to what was happening in China. The hard part for you is going to be getting the US involved eventually since Japan won't be reliant upon them for oil.
We don't know a whole lot about his personal views(though I think it's naive to assume that he held none of the prejudices common for his time and place in society), but his record on treatment of those branded as 'undesireable' by the Nazi Party is by far the best of any of the high-level Wehrmacht commanders of the war. As Meadow said, he refused to involve himself in the deportations and other atrocities committed against Jews in areas under his command and his Afrika Korps was never accused of war crimes.
If you're writing Rommel as a character, it's important to remember that he was an outsider his entire life- as a middle-class Swabian in an aristocratic Prussian army and as a nonpartisan nationalist concerned primarily with victory in a state where the military had become a political instrument of state terror.
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Cook
Banned
'What? Like hell they will! If it's south of the equator it's ours and no little yellow bugger's saying otherwise!'
I would say no. He once suggested to Hitler to make a Jew a Gauleiter (Regional Governor) because Germanys bad treatment of the Jews harmed its reputation.
And he disobeyed orders to execute Jews and other undesirables.
Plus, he prevented his son from joining the ss because he didn't want him to serve under a warcriminal, monster and thug.
I don't believe it is at all certain that we will see a total war between China and Japan given a PoD in the First World War.
It is true that Japan struggled to become the strongest regional power between 1868-1945, but that doesn't necessarily entail total war with China, much less with the Chinese, Dutch, British, and Americans. After all, I think it's possible to say that it was a longstanding part of German national policy to dominate "middle Europe" and, if possible, expand to the East. But this doesn't mean that any government that comes to power is going to launch a world war in order to attempt it.
For Japan's part, the nation had long carved out concessions in China, following the example of the European powers (including the treaty ports opened in Japan until 1899, which ironically meant for a year or two Japan both operated and suffered under the treaty port system). But Japan did not constantly and consistently maintain the same policy towards China during this entire 80-year period. In 1895, Japan gained at the expense of China via outright war. In 1915, Japan tried to influence China via the 21 Demands (which backfired horribly). Later during the war, she issued the Nishihara Loans, which were more sucessful. After the war, she supported the Anhui Clique. All of these are ways that Japan might attempt to gain influence in China without outright war and conquest.
And, of course, Japan DID NOT always try to expand its power and influence in China. In 1922, Japan agreed to give up all but purely economic rights in Shandong, abandoning all political and military rights there. In 1928, under the liberal internationalist FM Shidehara, Japan pushed for tarriff autonomy for China. This was something that China dearly wanted, and also something that the British and US opposed at the start of the meeting. If not for Shidehara, China likely would not have received tarriff autonomy at that meeting. For much of the Taisho Period, Japan was prosperous and relatively satisfied. After the long, painful experience of the Siberia Expedition finally ended, the military and military adventurism was unpopular with the Japanese public. This can be seen in the foreign policy that Japan pursued at the time--Shidehara's pro-Chinese policy, agreeing to naval restrictions, etc. Of course in OTL we know which kind of outlook and foreign policy won out. But that was not the only foreign policy the Empire of Japan had practiced. There was not one, unified national plan from 1868-1945. With a PoD 20 years or more before the Second Sino-Japanese War started in OTL, who can say what butterflies will be seen?
For the specific PoD of a Japanese DEI, I could see it going either way. On the one hand, it may make Japan more self-sufficient, and thus allow Japan to take a tougher stance earlier if they so desire. On the other hand, it makes Japan more self-sufficient. The "Strike North" plan was about securing a long-term buffer or defensive perimeter for Manchuria. The war against China was partly about removing or at least putting off the possibility of a strong China that could rival Japan. But I would argue that the larger part was simply a desire for resources. Auturky was a central tenet of the beliefs of the Militarists, as it was for other far-right governments of this time. Therefore seizing the resources of China, both material and people (as consumers or laborers) was seen as vital. There was a desire to turn it into a "Japanese India". Here, we might actually seen this idea as lesspopular, as Japan would already be self-sufficient in oil and has the resources of these islands at its disposal. So the perceived pressure might actually be lower. Finally, the DEI is very far from the Home Islands. The IJN of 1918 is not up to the task of defending it. It will have to be transformed from a fleet that can defend the Empire and its immediate surroundings into a force that can travel as far as the Indian Ocean in order to defend the DEI and vital oil shipments from those islands. Therefore we would likely see the IJN with much larger relative budgets, and it would gain prestige and influence at the expense of the IJA. So IJA ideas like expanding on the Asian mainland would be less likely to be taken up, I think.
Of course, I want to stress again that I think with a PoA of 20 years or mroe before the events we are talking about, almost anything is possible.
He also sent about a dozen letters to different officials in the government from 1937-1944 protesting the treatment of the Jews.
Also keep in mind in the Panzer Army Africa's area of operations in mid 1942 there were about 100,000 Jews in Libya as well as Jews in Egypt the SS did come to him and ask to be able to operate inside his legally designated area of operations in North Africa and he told them to fuck off.
Most of the Jews in North Africa after the war went to Israel, but they knew that if it had been another German commander in North Africa things likely would have been vastly different for their population. There is a reason they made his son the honorary guardian of Jerusalem after the war.
Thanks guys, looks like Rommel has bad bloom with the ss from this and that is perfect for what I have planned! (insert evil laugh here) another question then, when did Japan take possession of Korea? And it don't look like there is a definitive yes or no for the Chinese invasion, or well manchurian invasion I mean.
This here should be fairly educational on Rommel (it's a blog post, but it does cite sources);
http://eisberg.blogsport.de/2007/06/17/erwin-rommel-des-teufels-general/
English translation (via google)
Edit: While Rommel might not have been as bad as some people in the Wehrmacht or SS, he was still definitely a Nazi. If he had truly had a conscience, he would have resigned his command (around 1939 or earlier) at the very least.
http://eisberg.blogsport.de/2007/06/17/erwin-rommel-des-teufels-general/
English translation (via google)
Edit: While Rommel might not have been as bad as some people in the Wehrmacht or SS, he was still definitely a Nazi. If he had truly had a conscience, he would have resigned his command (around 1939 or earlier) at the very least.
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He was born in the 19th century and his personal hero was Napoleon. He had no moral problem with Imperialism as a means to enhance ones countries power if that is your point. However, having no moral problem with Imperialism doesn't mean he had no conscience or moral boundaries.
It would be easier to understand if you realize that he served in Africa from the very start of 1941 to mid 1943 and the SS didn't start committing genocide in Poland and Eastern Europe in general until the start of the invasion of Russia. His news for what was going on was U.S. and British papers which focused mainly on the plight of the Jews in Europe and while they knew some of what was going on the reporting that genocide was taking place really didn't pick up until well into 1943 though there were scattered reports of the killing of Jews before that.
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I'm not trying to say that he had no moral boundaries (it's obvious that he was better than most of his contemporaries), it just severe annoys me when people (more in other parts of the internet I've encountered than here) try to paint him as morally clean, when he fought for one of the worst regimes on Earth. Additionally, had the Afrika Corps reached Palestine, one of its jobs would have been the elimination of the Jewish population there; http://www.ushmm.org/research/publi...or-the-extermination-of-the-jews-of-palestine (If anyone has read the book referenced, and can vouch for its validity, I would appreciate it.)
Sorry to have derailed the thread so badly with this line of discussion.
Although they didn't set up the death camps immediately, the Wehrmacht was committing atrocities in Poland as soon as they moved in. In addition, Rommel commanded the 7th Panzer Division in France, during which it committed atrocities by gunning down surrendered troops of the 53rd Colonial Infantry regiment (including Captain Charles N'Tchoréré) at Airaines
The notion the book sells that the Panzer Army Africa planned to become a massive SS Einsatzgruppen like formation to liquidate the Jews in Palestine is quite frankly so far from reality its laughable.
Here is the reality... there was an SS unit that wanted to operate in Libya and Egypt and eventually Palestine to kill Jews. It was lead by Walther Rauff the creator of the mobile gas van. He went to Rommel asking him in mid 1942 to allow his SS troops to operate in his area of operations (at the time Libya and Egypt) and was booted from the tent. He went to Tunisia where Rommel at that point in time had no legal authority and stole from the local Jews there and used them as slave labor killing estimates are from several hundred to about two thousand.
If Rommel did manage to conquer the Middle East, yes it would have doomed the Jews of Palestine. But, to be blunt it would have required a very different WW2 with Hitler having extremely different military and strategic priorities (the desire to conquer the British Empire not Russia), Mussolini working Germany early when it came to fighting in Africa, as well as the British generals eating lead paint to have any chance to get the DAK to get to at least Iraq/Iran which is what would have been required for Rauff to make it to Palestine and link up with the Grand Mufti's men and start killing Palestinian Jews.
And, if anyone thinks there is any real justice in this world Rauff died in 1984 in Chile a very rich old man on stolen Jewish gold as well as being an operative for the West German intelligence service and I think two others. His SS buddies even attended his funeral services as you can see from the 1984 news report on the topic below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ilwON4pRPw
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Well I'm guessing that if he stumbled upon a concentration camp he would blow a couple gaskets wouldn't he? I'm not trying to find out if he was mortally clean, I mean he was a general in an immoral thing civilization invented called war. He was a German patriot that wanted to advance his country. But he was at least gonna save all the Jews in his power he could save if he couldn't save them all right? That's really what I asked... And what you guys have answered for me, now I do not have a definitive answer on my japan related questions. Answer them please!
He blew a gasket when he saw the pictures of the 640 civilians the SS Der Fuhrer regiment burned and gassed in a church in France and demanded he lead a court marshal of the officers involved. Now take that and times it by about a hundred fold in your scenario.
Three people have answered it and given their reasons. What do you mean by 'definitive'?