A Danish England

Pamc

A Danish England (open for suggestions)

Hi Again!

This is my first ever scenario and I think that's more a idiot AH but whatever!

6 January, 876

In this cold day the Anglo-Saxonic England changed suddenly.
The great King of Wessex Alfred is killed in is winter house in Chippenham by the brutal Guthrum, future King of the Danelaw and leader of the Vikings in England

March, 876

Following the dead of the King Alfred, the last Saxon resistence is lead by 5 Lords of the Cornwall(which the last saxons conquered in february and unified in the Saxon-Cornwall Kingdom) , but theirs army is weak and poor trained and his quickly eliminated by Guthrum.

April, 876

The seeds of a new nation are launched by Guthrum in the foundation of the Danelaw, a pagan Kingdom from the Eastern Part of the Midlands to the Eire Sea(Irish Sea). The rest of the British Islands is ruled by six other states:Cornish County, Scotland Dukedom, Dukedom of the Shetlands and Man, Principality of Eire, County of Hebrides and Chiefdom of York.


Okay first steps are made how should I continue
Open to suggestions
Thanks for reading
P.S-(I'm not using ancient names (Ælfrēd) for better comprehension)
 
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Tyr

The vikings in England generally kept the old political structure in place only with them in top. There'd still be a Mercia, East Anglia, etc... only with viking rulers.
And Cornwall wasn't a kingdom nor even a country at the time. It was a pretty lawless area of petty chiefdoms. And they weren't Saxon, they were Briton.
Ireland was very very splintered and any Dane who takes over the lot wouldn't settle for being a prince. People loved to call themselves king back then.
Being a king wasn't what it would become in later more civilized times when you needed the pope's say so. If you felt yourself strong enough, ruled your own lands and were free of any other lord then you called yourself a king.
 

Pamc

Mine idea is that all those dukedom,chiefdom,etc was ruled by Guthrum in a feudal sistem, copied from medieval france but more arcaic, divided by him and given to his family or friends





Again I'm waiting for suggestions to continue the Timeline
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

Pamc said:
April, 876

The seeds of a new nation are launched by Guthrum in the foundation of the Danelaw, a pagan Kingdom from the Eastern Part of the Midlands to the Eire Sea(Irish Sea). The rest of the British Islands is ruled by six other states:Cornish County, Scotland Dukedom, Dukedom of the Shetlands and Man, Principality of Eire, County of Hebrides and Chiefdom of York.
Click to expand...
Scotland is already a kingdom, Ireland is (5?), the Norse didn't have dukes (so the Shetlands might be a Jarldom, I suppose). 'County' sounds too Romance. Yorvik would surely be a kingdom. And as someone else pointed out the various A-S kingdoms are likely to (mostly) be kept, with a different ruler.

Guðrum will be a High King over the other kingdoms.


But aside from quibbling about names, let's see more. Names can be fixed. If the story isn't told we can't read it.:)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Beside Jarl (Earl) and Konge (King) Danish noble didn't have title before much later*, and not all noble had a title, even today a sigficant precent of the still left nobles don't have titles. Through any rulers will always have one of the two titles.

*The first Dukes came around in the 12-13th Century. But disappeared outside Schleswig again, while in the Kingdom Counties and Baronies only was created in the 1670ties, through a few counts existed in Holstein.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

Valdemar II said:
Beside Jarl (Earl) and Konge (King) Danish noble didn't have title before much later*, and not all noble had a title, even today a sigficant precent of the still left nobles don't have titles. Through any rulers will always have one of the two titles.

*The first Dukes came around in the 12-13th Century. But disappeared outside Schleswig again, while in the Kingdom Counties and Baronies only was created in the 1670ties, through a few counts existed in Holstein.
Click to expand...
Earl (British usage) = Count (continental usage). Jarl, in English is equated with those two ranks.

Ja, they had to borrow terms for Baron and Duke and Knight.

On the other hand they had a lovely term Skot-konungr (sp? tributary king) for someone who was a subking under someone else.


Danish Konge=Icelandic/Old Norse konung(u)r. same word, different evolution. Actually same word as King and König, too.
 
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bobbis14

I don't understand why they are trying to hold onto the territory, once they have pillaged it for all it's worth wont they leave as they were in the habbit of empire building?
 

Pamc

890

The High King of British Isles is dead and has no legitimate sucessor.
Civil War breaks down in to sides The Midlanders, in personal union with YorK and allied to all states versus powerfull Scotland Duke and his Clans.
Eirish Price also takes advantage of the war to claim th title of King of Eire

900

Ten years of civil war result on a treaty:the treaty of York,that estabilshs two states: an Unified state, The Danelaw, which extends from OTL Britain and almost every island, except the shetlands, which was conquered by The King of Eire, the other state.
The states are ruled by a pair of brothers: His Majesty Kraj of Danelaw and His Majesty Lars of Eire
 

Pamc

British Isles in 900
british20isleso.png
 

Troyer IV

Son of a Bitch! I had this exact thought a couple nights ago as I was going to bed, and was just about to post a thread on brainstorming.

Oh well, at least its here, haha. I just can't believe the coincidence.
 

MNP

This is a really useful thread since I am currently plotting out something like this myself. What kind of cultural changes would occur, not just in the Danelaw, but in other parts more marginally ruled by Scandinavian lords? Would they eventually just become Saxonized etc.? What would happen to language? Would the Saxons and Britons acquiesce to being ruled or would there be constant cultural-type rebellions?
 

Michael B

MNPundit said:
This is a really useful thread since I am currently plotting out something like this myself. What kind of cultural changes would occur, not just in the Danelaw, but in other parts more marginally ruled by Scandinavian lords? Would they eventually just become Saxonized etc.? What would happen to language? Would the Saxons and Britons acquiesce to being ruled or would there be constant cultural-type rebellions?
Click to expand...
Without a strong Saxon leader there is no reason why the Danes could not control more of England thus creating Saxon-Danes in the south like they created Anglo-Danes in the north. More Scandanavian worlds would appear in the english language just as Norman words appeared in it in OTL post 1066.

Cultural type rebellions can be resolved in the long run by intermarriage and collaberation of like minded individuals/opportunists.

*****
On Pamc's map: if the Normans could not manage conquer Scotland during a civil war and with their edge in military technology then the Danes would have no chance in doing so.
 

arctic warrior

Pamc said:
890

The High King of British Isles is dead and has no legitimate sucessor.
Civil War breaks down in to sides The Midlanders, in personal union with YorK and allied to all states versus powerfull Scotland Duke and his Clans.
Eirish Price also takes advantage of the war to claim th title of King of Eire
Click to expand...

There would always be a legitimate successor - some brother or cousin or uncle of the King. Remember this is pre-Christian royal tradition; the general consensus among scholars is that the real prerequisite for becoming a King of Denmark was lineage. Thus any well reputed male member of the royal family would qualify as a pretender!
Hereditary succession was NOT a commodity in this day and age in Danish society.

Older Danish historians held the theory that Guthrum was of the royal house and probably King Sigfred who got chasen out of Hedeby was another member who might have succeeded Guthrum.
There was also royal family members as rulers in the Low Countries/Friesland that would qualify for the position.

With this multitude of pretenders a civil war would be quite likely and probably the Anglo-Saxons would make a bid for themselves. Remember the Vikings had a habit of taking advantage of inter-Anglo-Saxon rivalries to make their conquests.

Pamc said:
900

Ten years of civil war result on a treaty:the treaty of York,that estabilshs two states: an Unified state, The Danelaw, which extends from OTL Britain and almost every island, except the shetlands, which was conquered by The King of Eire, the other state.
The states are ruled by a pair of brothers: His Majesty Kraj of Danelaw and His Majesty Lars of Eire
Click to expand...

As already mentioned the Kingdom of Eire was hardly established as a fact. The recognition of a High King seemed rather a recognition of the strongest by the weaker Kings. Not unlike the Scandinavian realities.

Also the Norse didn't mind going to war against their brethern; Kingdoms of Jorvik, Dublin, Man and the Isles warring among each other as well the Irish, Scots and English (whoever these were).

But of course a strong ruler might just pull off establishing a major demesne but the rule would be that his successors would squander the gains in years to come.
 
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