A Buccaneering Vixen in the Falklands

[Gunnarnz]

Let's assume that the RN manages to keep HMS Hermes as a conventional carrier through the 1970s and into the 1980s. Perhaps there's no budget for the Commando conversion - the exact reason doesn't matter. Let us further assume that she retains the air group she did during the 1970s. For reference, that was usually 9 Buccaneers, 9 Sea Vixens, a single COD Gannet, 3 AEW Gannets, 2 Wessex as plane guards and balance being Sea Kings.

When 1982 rolls around and the British Task Force goes south, the air group is badly outdated. However, it offers a mix of capabilities which the OTL Task Force lacked. How would this air group be employed during the conflict, and waht differences might it make compared to OTL?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Let's assume that the RN manages to keep HMS Hermes as a conventional carrier through the 1970s and into the 1980s. Perhaps there's no budget for the Commando conversion - the exact reason doesn't matter. Let us further assume that she retains the air group she did during the 1970s. For reference, that was usually 9 Buccaneers, 9 Sea Vixens, a single COD Gannet, 3 AEW Gannets, 2 Wessex as plane guards and balance being Sea Kings.

When 1982 rolls around and the British Task Force goes south, the air group is badly outdated. However, it offers a mix of capabilities which the OTL Task Force lacked. How would this air group be employed during the conflict, and waht differences might it make compared to OTL?

Vixen was retired in 1972 - so assuming it does not and soldiers on into the early 80s for whatever reason will it have been further improved beyond the 1964 FAW 2 standard?

Perhaps a FAW 3 standard is created in 1978 - improved avionics, improved radar and improved version of the Avon. An increase in hard points allow it to carry 4 Sky flash and 2 Aim 9 Sidewinders (later modification allow for the fitting of twin rail launchers increasing the capacity to 4).

Hermes sorties south with 12 FAW 3 Sea Vixens, 10 Buccaneer S3 standard (including 2 fitted for the experimental Sea Eagle with a total of 8 of those weapons deployed), 3 AEW Gannets (the COD, joined by 2 others was operated from Ascension given that the fleet would remain out of range for the most part) and 2 plane guard Wessex HC Helicopters and 5 Sea King AEW Helicopters for a total of 32 Aircraft.

HMS Blake due to be withdrawn from service was sent along with Hermes to provide additional ASW coverage with 4 Sea Kings embarked and to act as a foil to the ARA General Belgrano in case the Argentine Cruiser managed to close with the fleet with her 6-inch Gun Mark N5

 

[DougM]

The key to this is not the Vixen it is the AEW aircraft and to a lesser degree the Buccaneers.
An AEW aircraft vectoring in Harriers would have made a HUGE difference in the way.
The Buccaneers would be useful as well. But the detection of incoming raids in time to intercept farther out is Key

 

[Monk78]

Sea vixen could still be a decent CAS platform?

 

[Gunnarnz]

The key to this is not the Vixen it is the AEW aircraft and to a lesser degree the Buccaneers.
An AEW aircraft vectoring in Harriers would have made a HUGE difference in the way.
The Buccaneers would be useful as well. But the detection of incoming raids in time to intercept farther out is Key

I agree. Even though the Gannets were still using a WW2 radar, they would be a huge advantage. The Buccs are very good strike aircraft and I think they could carry Martel and Shrike missiles, which makes them very flexible. Of course, the other thing they could do is act as tankers, making CAPs and strikes more flexible too.

Sea vixen could still be a decent CAS platform?

Yeah, I think they could be. I know they could carry rocket pods and bombs even in their un-upgraded configuration. I don't know how they would do against the Argentinian aircraft, though. Anyone got an opinion on how the air-war might play out with a dozen Sea Vixens replacing a dozen of the Shars from OTL?

 

[Gunnarnz]

Bumping this because I'm still curious: how would a dozen Sea Vixens do against the Argentineans in this scenario, assuming support from a few Gannet AEW and some Buccaneer tankers? In their final OTL configuration they could carry 4x Red Top or Firestreaks, although if they stayed in service until 1982 they might have been updated to carry Sidewinders.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Bumping this because I'm still curious: how would a dozen Sea Vixens do against the Argentineans in this scenario, assuming support from a few Gannet AEW and some Buccaneer tankers? In their final OTL configuration they could carry 4x Red Top or Firestreaks, although if they stayed in service until 1982 they might have been updated to carry Sidewinders.

If they were updated to carry Sidewinders would they also be updated to carry Skyflash?

 

[Gunnarnz]

If they were updated to carry Sidewinders would they also be updated to carry Skyflash?

For purposes of encouraging a discussion, let's say so. Skyflash entered service in 1978, so let's assume Hermes has some in the ordnance locker when she sails south.

 

[Navigator]

If the Étendards can be denied any operations within 40 nautical miles of British surface vessels, they're out of range of the Exocets available to the Argentinians. Detecting and destroying any on-shore supplies then becomes the highest priority. That's where the Buccaneers could tip the balance. Having a range of different aircraft available certainly does improve the capability of the UK's task force.

 

[jsb]

Vixen was retired in 1972 - so assuming it does not and soldiers on into the early 80s for whatever reason will it have been further improved beyond the 1964 FAW 2 standard?

Perhaps a FAW 3 standard is created in 1978 - improved avionics, improved radar and improved version of the Avon. An increase in hard points allow it to carry 4 Sky flash and 2 Aim 9 Sidewinders (later modification allow for the fitting of twin rail launchers increasing the capacity to 4).

Hermes sorties south with 12 FAW 3 Sea Vixens, 10 Buccaneer S3 standard (including 2 fitted for the experimental Sea Eagle with a total of 8 of those weapons deployed), 3 AEW Gannets (the COD, joined by 2 others was operated from Ascension given that the fleet would remain out of range for the most part) and 2 plane guard Wessex HC Helicopters and 5 Sea King AEW Helicopters for a total of 32 Aircraft.

HMS Blake due to be withdrawn from service was sent along with Hermes to provide additional ASW coverage with 4 Sea Kings embarked and to act as a foil to the ARA General Belgrano in case the Argentine Cruiser managed to close with the fleet with her 6-inch Gun Mark N5

Even if we assumed the only aircraft available are Buccaneer (other than Sea Harriers and Sea King) as they carried on being used by RAF, would they not be effective for bombing carrying more than Sea Harrier, and they might be able to air or air buddy tank the Sea Harrier for extended range?

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

If they were updated to carry Sidewinders would they also be updated to carry Skyflash?

I’m assuming that you’d need a completely new radar to be installed as part of the upgrade. Given the cost involved for a 1950’s design it would probably have been more cost effective to have a completely new aircraft.

Hermes entered service in 1959 but it was soon apparent that her flight deck was barely large enough to cope with the Vixen and Buccaneer. The RN’s carriers had a pretty appalling accident rate in this era which was one of the reasons why it wanted CVA-01.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I’m assuming that you’d need a completely new radar to be installed as part of the upgrade. Given the cost involved for a 1950’s design it would probably have been more cost effective to have a completely new aircraft.

Hermes entered service in 1959 but it was soon apparent that her flight deck was barely large enough to cope with the Vixen and Buccaneer. The RN’s carriers had a pretty appalling accident rate in this era which was one of the reasons why it wanted CVA-01.

I agree which is why that aircraft was called Phantom

However if it was forced to soldier on....or should that be sailor on?

 

[Navigator]

Man comes home to his wife and says, "bad news, darling, the doctor says I've got genital Hermes."

"Don't you mean herpes?"

"No, I'm just a carrier."

<Gets coat and exits, shamefaced.>

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Even if we assumed the only aircraft available are Buccaneer (other than Sea Harriers and Sea King) as they carried on being used by RAF, would they not be effective for bombing carrying more than Sea Harrier, and they might be able to air or air buddy tank the Sea Harrier for extended range?

I would assume that the Bucc would be available and yes it carried a lot more than SHAR 1 - which was basically limited to 2 bombs

Bucc carried 'all the bombs' and had a capacity for about 7000 kgs of stores could fly further etc

 

[Navigator]

Bucc carried 'all the bombs' and had a capacity for about 7000 kgs of stores

12,000lb externally, 4,000lb internally. 16,000lb / 7,250kg total.

 

[jsb]

12,000lb externally, 4,000lb internally. 16,000lb / 7,250kg total.

But probably not off the small deck & Cats of HMS Hermes? Is that not likely Ark or land take off or could they do it with very low fuel and then tank up with a buddy? What would they carry (and land back on with in wartime so maybe dropping stores at sea would be acceptable for early aborts no matter the cost) off Hermes?

 

[Navigator]

They could certainly get off the deck of Ark IV or Eagle when fully armed. I don't have any comparable notes about Hermes.

 

[sonofpegasus]

What is the longest range air to air missile available to the British in 1982?

 

[Navigator]

Firestreak - 4 miles, Red Top - 7½ miles, Sidewinder - 22 miles, Sparrow - 24 miles, Skyflash - 28 miles but unreliable. Not all these were used by the FAA.

 

[Normal for Norfolk]

Firestreak - 4 miles, Red Top - 7½ miles, Sidewinder - 22 miles, Sparrow - 24 miles, Skyflash - 28 miles but unreliable. Not all these were used by the FAA.

Not 22 miles on the Sidewinder in 1982. Latest model available is AIM-9L with a max range of 18km.

Short range guided missile AIM-9L Sidewinder | Missilery.info

The Vietnam War showed low efficiency, all modifications of Sidewinder missiles. The use of these missiles imposed significant limitations on the maneuverability of the carrier aircraft. To hit the

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