A British Mirage III - what would it take?

[Cryhavoc101]

"If it were not for the clumsy way in which you tackle things in Britain, you could have made the Mirage yourself" Marcel Dassault

It is fairly well documented that the Mirage III was one of the more successful cold war era fighters

An excellent aircraft that has stood the test of time quite well

It is also quite well documented that (and not taking anything away from them) Dassault was able to gain a lot of information from the British Fairey Delta II aircraft that for reasons of nonsense had to conduct a lot of its supersonic testing from Cazaux in Bordeaux.

And it is pretty much accepted within aviation circles that Britain had they not been hamstrung by some very foolish decision making could quite easily have built a similar aircraft as Transonic and supersonic area rule theory's were understood during the mid 50s and could have built their own 'Mirage III' fighter for the 60s.

Now this is a drum I have been banging for a while now but I would like to build a reasonable TL that results in such an aircraft serving the RAF and others into the 80s

What I would like to discuss is what would it have taken?

A Collaborative project with France?

Could the British have gone it alone?

What political decision making process that OTL likely prevented this would have to change?

What gets ditched that OTL either did not or ultimately got cancelled anyway?

 

[Questerr]

The 1957 Defense White Paper never gets published and the Hawker P.1121 enters production and service.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The 1957 Defense White Paper never gets published and the Hawker P.1121 enters production and service.

Certainly a better understanding of what the P.1121 was by the air staff and government of the day would also have helped

Interesting I always considered the P.1121 as a British Phantom, perhaps it could still be that and a British Mirage III?

I suspect that Lightning would have to go for the P.1121 to have been chosen?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Fairey builds the FD2 around minimal fighter requirements in the same manner as Gloster did with the E28/39 10 years earlier?

 

[Questerr]

Certainly a better understanding of what the P.1121 was by the air staff and government of the day would also have helped

Interesting I always considered the P.1121 as a British Phantom, perhaps it could still be that and a British Mirage III?

I suspect that Lightning would have to go for the P.1121 to have been chosen?

You could call the Mirage III “the French Phantom”, so they’re all equivalent aircraft.

 

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

"If it were not for the clumsy way in which you tackle things in Britain, you could have made the Mirage yourself" Marcel Dassault

It is fairly well documented that the Mirage III was one of the more successful cold war era fighters

An excellent aircraft that has stood the test of time quite well

It is also quite well documented that (and not taking anything away from them) Dassault was able to gain a lot of information from the British Fairey Delta II aircraft that for reasons of nonsense had to conduct a lot of its supersonic testing from Cazaux in Bordeaux.

And it is pretty much accepted within aviation circles that Britain had they not been hamstrung by some very foolish decision making could quite easily have built a similar aircraft as Transonic and supersonic area rule theory's were understood during the mid 50s and could have built their own 'Mirage III' fighter for the 60s.

Now this is a drum I have been banging for a while now but I would like to build a reasonable TL that results in such an aircraft serving the RAF and others into the 80s

What I would like to discuss is what would it have taken?

A Collaborative project with France?

Could the British have gone it alone?

What political decision making process that OTL likely prevented this would have to change?

What gets ditched that OTL either did not or ultimately got cancelled anyway?

Personally

Have Sandy to have a heart attack before '57 . . . . then just develop the Fairy Delta II

Job done.

 

[Riain]

This is actually pretty tough due to money, timing ad RAF requirements.

The 60s RAF was extremely bomber heavy from the late 50s; 14 Strategic V bomber sqns, 3 Tactical bomber sqns and 9 light bomber sqns whereas it only had 11 fighter sqns and 9 fighter ground attack/fighter recce sqns. IOTL the fighter sqns were Lightnings and the FGA/FR sqns were Hunter F6 conversions. The RAF had no transonic fighter so needed something in service for the fighter role in the late 50s, it couldn't wait until the early 60s, which s a key reason why the Lightning went into production.

A factor to be considered was that large scale US MWDP funding had dried up in 1956, meaning that Britain had to foot the total cost of developing the likes of the F155 interceptor requirement. This is a major reason why F155 and other advanced projects were cancelled in the 1957 DWP, alongside the changing nature of warfare.

I'd suggest the initial requirement would be something instead of the Hunter conversions to equip the 9 sqns, with IOC by 1960 or so. If it gets into production then it might also snag the fighter orders that went to the Lightning F3, F3A and F6 IOTL. While the FD2 looks reasonable on the surface a production version was a long way away; the ER.103/B using the FD2s wings with a new fuselage was an experimental aircraft rather than a fighter prototype and needed 18 months from an order to be ready to fly. The production FD2 based fighter ER.103/C was to use the ER.103/Bs fuselage with new, bigger wings and thus share no components with the record breaking FD2 and would need 30 months from an order to have the first prototype flying. Being an F155 contender the ER.103/C would have been a big aircraft in the class of the Lightning, F105, F106, rather than a small aircraft in the class of the Mirage III, Mig 21 and F104 which I assume will hurts it's export prospects.

Personally I cannot square this particular circle, there's always a deal breaker that brings me back to the Lightning, usually money but also timing and RAF requirements. That said I do like the Hawker P1121, on paper it looks pretty cool.

 

[tomo pauk]

Could the British have gone it alone?

Yes.
What it would take, is that top brass at the RAF gets realistic: industry needs to make combat aircraft that are easy to sell abroad. That means one engine on a fighter aircraft, not two. Spitfires, not Whirlwinds; P-51s, not P-38s - but for the jet age.

 

[Riain]

Yes.
What it would take, is that top brass at the RAF gets realistic: industry needs to make combat aircraft that are easy to sell abroad. That means one engine on a fighter aircraft, not two. Spitfires, not Whirlwinds; P-51s, not P-38s - but for the jet age.

The RAF should develop aircraft that suit its requirements, not everyone else's.

Imagine explaining to the rump government in exile after WW3 that while the small fighter sold well it wasn't able to intercept the nuclear armed bombers that destroyed Britain.

 

[tomo pauk]

The RAF should develop aircraft that suit its requirements, not everyone else's.

Imagine explaining to the rump government in exile after WW3 that while the small fighter sold well it wasn't able to intercept the nuclear armed bombers that destroyed Britain.

RAF does not develop the aircraft. Industry does. The better they do business, the better they are viable in the next 5, 10 or 20 years to respond to the new tasks.
Point 2: someone will need to explain why the big and expensive fighter was without an all-weather capability to kill enemy bombers 20 years after the ww2. Hopefully the answer will not be: well, we were expecting to enemy play fair and attack only in fair weather.

 

[Riain]

RAF does not develop the aircraft. Industry does. The better they do business, the better they are viable in the next 5, 10 or 20 years to respond to the new tasks.
Point 2: someone will need to explain why the big and expensive fighter was without an all-weather capability to kill enemy bombers 20 years after the ww2. Hopefully the answer will not be: well, we were expecting to enemy play fair and attack only in fair weather.

The RAF sets out specs based on it's requirements and industry attempts to meet those specs using funding provided by RAF development contracts. Hawker tried to keep the P1121 alive after the 57 DWP but despite the technical promise of the aircraft a lack of RAF interest meant it was a dead end. Similarly the SR177 was kept alive after the 57 DWP due to RN and West German interest, but when WG withdrew in late 57 it was decided that RN requirement alone were not sufficient to keep the project alive. Japanese interest in 1958 was not enough to revive it.

What big, expensive fighter was without all weather capability to kill bombers? Certainly not the Lightning which had the worlds first monopulse fighter radar and the Firesteak AAM upon it's introduction in 1959.

 

[Riain]

I think there are big plane air forces and small plane air forces.

France is definitely a small plane air force, the big Mirage F2-3, Gs, and 4000 never entered production but the small III, 5, F1, 2000 did.

In contrast I think the RAF is a big plane air force with the V bombers, Lightning, Phantom, Buccaneer and Tornado outnumbering small planes like the Harrier and Jaguar.

I think there are a lot more small plane air forces than big plane air forces, so RAF planes tend to be less competitive on the export market for this reason.

 

[tomo pauk]

What big, expensive fighter was without all weather capability to kill bombers? Certainly not the Lightning which had the worlds first monopulse fighter radar and the Firesteak AAM upon it's introduction in 1959.

The 'all weather' part includes an all-weather missile. The Firestreak was not such a missile.
Having a fighter with just one engine does not preclude a radar in the nose to be installed.

I think there are a lot more small plane air forces than big plane air forces, so RAF planes tend to be less competitive on the export market for this reason.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Riain]

The 'all weather' part includes an all-weather missile. The Firestreak was not such a missile.
Having a fighter with just one engine does not preclude a radar in the nose to be installed.



Agreed 100%.

What late 50s missile was any better? In any case the early Lightnings could be fitted with 48 x 2" rockets or a 2nd pair of 30mm Aden guns instead of the Firestreak.

The nosecone radar installation was not a problem, the AI23 had a 21" dish compared to the 15" of the Mirage III Cyrano II and had a range of 70km and 110km in the AI23B.

As for exports, the RAF should not adopt aircraft that are unsuitable to maintain British security because such aircraft would do well on the export market.

 

[Hammerbolt]

A british government with brains, not one that did it's best to destroy the UK's air industry.

 

[Deleted member 2186]

A british government with brains, not one that did it's best to destroy the UK's air industry.

True, but then again, the French would love having the British fly French fighters.

 

[Hammerbolt]

True, but then again, the French would love having the British fly French fighters.

Well, le duh! and, tbh, vice-versa. Imagine a french Lightning...

At least they teamed up for the Jaguar and Lynx, and did good work on those...

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Well, le duh! and, tbh, vice-versa. Imagine a french Lightning...

At least they teamed up for the Jaguar and Lynx, and did good work on those...

What if Le Roost Beeef Mirage III is actually a collaboration between Britain and France - so an Anglo French development?

 

[Michel Van]

Let's assume The Labor Government really screw up
While TRS.2 are scraped and US Angry about cancellation on F-111K and F-4 orders
and Military need new Airplanes and Bomber, While France and Dassault offer Britain a deal:

Mirage IIIK and IVK for RAF in nice package deal
Adaptation of Mirage for Rolls&Royce Jet Engines
BAC produce Mirage in join venture with Dassault in Britain.
French Airforce buy Harriers jets
(by the way, Dassault study use of Mirage on Aircraft carrier)

This would kill the Panavia Tornado Bomber, means this would pure fighter jet for Germans

 

[tomo pauk]

What late 50s missile was any better? In any case the early Lightnings could be fitted with 48 x 2" rockets or a 2nd pair of 30mm Aden guns instead of the Firestreak.

The nosecone radar installation was not a problem, the AI23 had a 21" dish compared to the 15" of the Mirage III Cyrano II and had a range of 70km and 110km in the AI23B.

As for exports, the RAF should not adopt aircraft that are unsuitable to maintain British security because such aircraft would do well on the export market.

An 1-engined fighter armed with two Firestreaks, pair of cannons and a radar in the nose does 95% of what Lightning does, but on a budget and with aero industry being a net gainer for the UK budget, so the RAF can get even better tools in the years to come.
Lightning (and every fighter in the world) was still depending on ground radars, despite it's onboard radar.