A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

So randomly had an argument with the wife yesterday about what banana varieties would have been available in Britain in the post war -40s-50s, when her parents were children.

My view was that it would be like today, one variety, even if it was a different one than what we get today.
 
The British had actually banned the import of Bananas iOTL in 1940 determining the only fruit that could be imported was oranges. (note, this *may* have been done to attempt to get Franco on the British side as most were imported from Spain).
I think it was more the fact that oranges don't need to be transported in refrigerated ships, whereas most other fruits do. The more modern reefers were particularly valuable shipping not so much for the refrigeration but because they were quick, so didn't need to go in convoy. Prior to the ban on imports the 'banana boats' were sailing independently and getting away with it due to their speed.

After the banana ban those ships could either go onto importing something more important like meat or other products, or be converted to other purposes like RFA stores ship, ocean boarding vessel or whatever. The first RN escort carrier, HMS Audacity, was originally a banana boat, albeit a German one that had been captured.
In fact in 1941, the British arranged for a subsidy for the Jamaican orange growers as the Bananas could not be shipped from Jamaica (Britain had traditionally been their largest market, and it was definitely behind the trade walls of the empire. In fact, for the Tilapa (and her sisters in 1945), the desired bananas could not be completely supplied from Jamaica (Jamaica just didn't have enough of an industry left between the war and the leaf spot disease).
Jamaica had also been pounded badly in the '39 hurricane season, so the banana plantations were in a bad way even before the war.
I'm not sure the author has answered whether you have a breakdown of the Sterling area (which functionally includes the rest of the Entente post war) vs. the Dollar area post war.
Pre-war there wasn't really a Dollar area and I'm not sure I see the driver for one post-war. Certainly I'd be surprised to see anything like Bretton Woods emerge, so I look forward to seeing what does happen as something has to change because the pre-war setup cannot be returned to.
 
I think it was more the fact that oranges don't need to be transported in refrigerated ships, whereas most other fruits do. The more modern reefers were particularly valuable shipping not so much for the refrigeration but because they were quick, so didn't need to go in convoy. Prior to the ban on imports the 'banana boats' were sailing independently and getting away with it due to their speed.

After the banana ban those ships could either go onto importing something more important like meat or other products, or be converted to other purposes like RFA stores ship, ocean boarding vessel or whatever. The first RN escort carrier, HMS Audacity, was originally a banana boat, albeit a German one that had been captured.

Jamaica had also been pounded badly in the '39 hurricane season, so the banana plantations were in a bad way even before the war.

Pre-war there wasn't really a Dollar area and I'm not sure I see the driver for one post-war. Certainly I'd be surprised to see anything like Bretton Woods emerge, so I look forward to seeing what does happen as something has to change because the pre-war setup cannot be returned to.
Point taken. I'd be curious as to what the Tilapa (and her sisters) were transporting during the war. Beef definitely makes sense.

Also, I'd be interested in when the UK could last feed itself. (Is the answer the day before Irish independence???)

I saw that storms were listed in the article, but wasn't quite sure what year. It makes sense given the *considerable* drop in Banana production between 1939 and 1940. According to Wikipedia Hurricane six was a Category 1 storm that passed just north of Jamaica with extensive damage on the northern half of the Island.

Agreed, not as significant as the Sterling area, but there was still a large part of Central America whose finances were still controlled by the US in a way that sort of makes that a Dollar area.
 
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So randomly had an argument with the wife yesterday about what banana varieties would have been available in Britain in the post war -40s-50s, when her parents were children.

My view was that it would be like today, one variety, even if it was a different one than what we get today.
Yes. From the 1820s to the 1950s, the primary "desert" Banana exported was the Gros Michel. From then until now, it is the Cavendish.
 
Yes. From the 1820s to the 1950s, the primary "desert" Banana exported was the Gros Michel. From then until now, it is the Cavendish.

Right thanks.

I wonder why even to this day we have such a narrow range in supermarkets in many countries.

This whole discussion started when we walked past a market stall that serves the Afro Carribbean community in our area, which had two types of banana.
 
Also, I'd be interested in when the UK could last feed itself. (Is the answer the day before Irish independence???)
Since the UK couldn't feed itself during WWI, before Irish independence, that's not right.

My suspicion is that it's probably 1844 - it clearly couldn't during the Irish Potato Famine / Great Hunger, and by the time that had ended, the Corn Laws had been repealed for long enough for GB to be dependent on imported grain.
 
Since the UK couldn't feed itself during WWI, before Irish independence, that's not right.

My suspicion is that it's probably 1844 - it clearly couldn't during the Irish Potato Famine / Great Hunger, and by the time that had ended, the Corn Laws had been repealed for long enough for GB to be dependent on imported grain.
Actually they did a study either just before or at the start of WW2 and came to the conclusion that GB could feed itself, just. The diet would have been very bland, limited variety and flatulent but survivable. Obviously they also decided it was better to add imports.
Now that was not the case earlier, so it is a case of food supply increasing faster than population in the inter war years, when it crossed over I don't know.
 
There have been substantial routine imports of food to the UK since the late 1600s at least - eggs and pork products initially I think - so we're on several centuries on the trot of it being most profitable to import food whether or not it's necessary.
 
Point taken. I'd be curious as to what the Tilapa (and her sisters) were transporting during the war. Beef definitely makes sense.
It's in my books somewhere, but my understanding is that a lot of them were supporting the war in the Western Desert. The high speed meant that they were very suitable for running fast convoys around the Cape.
 
There have been substantial routine imports of food to the UK since the late 1600s at least - eggs and pork products initially I think - so we're on several centuries on the trot of it being most profitable to import food whether or not it's necessary.
Polish wheat was routinely imported into England even earlier than that - Gdańsk got access to the Vistula river trade in 1343 and, after the first wave of the Black Death ended, rapidly became a major route for wheat exports; there were significant volumes to England as early as 1400.
 
Polish wheat was routinely imported into England even earlier than that - Gdańsk got access to the Vistula river trade in 1343 and, after the first wave of the Black Death ended, rapidly became a major route for wheat exports; there were significant volumes to England as early as 1400.
Wasn't asking when it started making sense to import food to England, but rather when (or if) they got to the point where having to work from only local food production would have been a significant existential issue (the way it would be if Singapore tried to feed itself)
 

Driftless

Donor
Asking from an un-informed American perspective: what percentage of daily diet came from British backyard gardens - as compared to local farms and imports?
 

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
Wasn't asking when it started making sense to import food to England, but rather when (or if) they got to the point where having to work from only local food production would have been a significant existential issue (the way it would be if Singapore tried to feed itself)

England exported a load of wool in the middle ages.

The money from the wool export greatly exceeded the cost of the food imports

Basic economics

Concentrate on what you can do most profitably and import the rest
 
Asking from an un-informed American perspective: what percentage of daily diet came from British backyard gardens - as compared to local farms and imports?
Statistics UK would be the best place to find out the percentages as they changed during the war, but in 1939 the UK imported roughly 60%-70% of it's food. This included 70% of cereals, 50% of meats, and up to 90% of butter. Domestic food production intially dropped as enlistments & conscription into the armed forces picked up, before agriculture was declared a reserved industry. This was offset by rationing, food wastage laws, increased mechanisation of agriculture, the formation of the Women's Land Army and the utilisation of conscientious objectors, prisoners and POWs as farm labour. Allotments, also known as Victory or community gardens, doubled over the war. Initiatives such as pig clubs and the encouragment of urban poultry & rabbit breeding also eased the food stresses caused by the war.
 
Current assumption is that the League of Nations is dead and won't be replaced - the circumstances which led to the UN post-WW2 (largely driven by the US) just aren't there.

Problem with this is what about all the parts of the League that hadn't failed?

Yes, obviously at this point the Assembly has proven useless. The Council had already been deeply flawed without America, the Soviets, and Germany, but after Italy and Japan's behavior is a joke.

But much of the organization's structure was transferred directly to the UN because there was nothing actually wrong with it. The Slavery Commission reduced slavery. The World Health Commission was a fair success. The Commission on Refugees did as well as it was allowed to do (which meant less well in the '30s).

Discussing the LoN as if peacekeeping was all it did... that's not even most of what it did. Simply drop the League without replacement and there are real, global steps backward.
 
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