447: Attila Captures Constantinople?

[Communist Wizard]

In 447, several Earthquakes destroyed the Walls of Constantinople. Not totally, but enough damage was done that Atilla sensed an opportunity and rode towards New Rome.
In OTL, restoration was surprising quick, and by the time Atilla got there he was disappointed.
What if the Earthquakes were more severe and when Atilla got to Constantinople the Walls were still weak enough to have him enter and takre Constantinople?
Ramifications? etc.?

 

[maverick]

What the hell is wrong with you? how dare you suggest that the Great and most awesome Bizantine Empire could do worse? in this site we dedicate our lives to say that they could do better and should have conquered the world!

Run and pray that Midgard and the rest don't find you!

Now, seriously...

I like the idea, but as I see it, the Constantinoplans either bribe Attila with a massive mountain of gold or he plunders the city...perhaps after a siege...we of course have to consider what has happened to the Emperor and whether he's taken the army to regroup or was killed during the siege...

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

What the hell is wrong with you? how dare you suggest that the Great and most awesome Bizantine Empire could do worse? in this site we dedicate our lives to say that they could do better and should have conquered the world!

Run and pray that Midgard and the rest don't find you!

Now, seriously...

I like the idea, but as I see it, the Constantinoplans either bribe Attila with a massive mountain of gold or he plunders the city...perhaps after a siege...we of course have to consider what has happened to the Emperor and whether he's taken the army to regroup or was killed during the siege...

I have to say I don't see it. Constantinople has been taken by a fully foreign force only once, in 1453. And they had cannons. And the Empire consisted of . . . nothing but The City.

Constantinople also had more money than Attila can even understand, so they drown him in gold if they think the walls won't be repaired fast enough.

 

[Valdemar II]

If Attila sack Constatinoble it open up Thrace to a Ostrogothic Kingdom either as a Hunnic vassal or as Roman confederalis. This could mean that the West Roman Empire survive in Italy for at least a few decades more.

 

[Porsenna]

Constantinople also had more money than Attila can even understand, so they drown him in gold if they think the walls won't be repaired fast enough.

Was Attila only after loot? I believe I remember a few historians of the time that described him as quite frugal, almost spartan in his lifestyle. If he was after, I dunno, glory or power, he could decide that conquering and settling in Constantinople could be worth more than all the gold they can offer. After all, when he ruled the place, he would have owned all that money, and all the other treasures the Romans owned on top of that.

 

[Don_Giorgio]

I have to say I don't see it. Constantinople has been taken by a fully foreign force only once, in 1453. And they had cannons. And the Empire consisted of . . . nothing but The City.

Constantinople also had more money than Attila can even understand, so they drown him in gold if they think the walls won't be repaired fast enough.

I agree... If Theodosius II saw that the repairs werent fast enough to catch up with the incoming Attila he would have gathered all the gold of the Empire and drowned him with that...
Besides in OTL when Constantinople Nobles learned that Attila was coming they started selling everything... lands, furnitures everthing that could be sold in order to make money to pay off Attila...

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Was Attila only after loot? I believe I remember a few historians of the time that described him as quite frugal, almost spartan in his lifestyle. If he was after, I dunno, glory or power, he could decide that conquering and settling in Constantinople could be worth more than all the gold they can offer. After all, when he ruled the place, he would have owned all that money, and all the other treasures the Romans owned on top of that.

Loot might not have been his only goal, but loot is power, and there's a cost-benefit judgement that he has to make: Possibly failed and certainly costly attack, or free money?

I agree with those who say Constantinople isn't going to be sacked. Those gigantic walls were built for a reason. You really have to go see them for yourself to get a sense of what it would take to get through those defenses. The Ottomans at the peak of their vitality and with cannons almost failed to take the city in a semi-ruined state with only 7,000 troops defending it - even serious breeches can be plugged with debris and wood/earth ramparts.

It's not just a wall, it's a massive defensive system of many layers, and they're designed to withstand earthquakes, which they have done admirably. I mean, the things are still standing, and nobody has maintained them for 500 years.

 

[Communist Wizard]

If Attila sack Constatinoble it open up Thrace to a Ostrogothic Kingdom either as a Hunnic vassal or as Roman confederalis. This could mean that the West Roman Empire survive in Italy for at least a few decades more.

Interesting. West RE outlasts the East RE for a short while but then gets destroyed too?
As for the usual Byzantiphiles, I'll throw this out:
Basically, the Earthquakes in OTL were a bit implausible so I onlly tweak the implausability by damaging the walls almost totally (AHP, this is early not later Constantinopple, those quualities you've described came later, possibly a short while later but still late). Also, they damage the town quite a bit too, resulting in chaos and such. Atilla, meeanwhile, doesn't care for the bribes and goes after ruined Constantinople and with a bit of lluck we have a Hunnic vassal of Thrace.
Carry on...?

 

[Communist Wizard]

No interest?
I knew it! All a conspiracy of the Byzantine Fanclub!
I shall not succumb! I shall post atimeline of one of the few anti-Byzantine PODs on this board!

 

[Valdemar II]

Interesting. West RE outlasts the East RE for a short while but then gets destroyed too?

Maybe we could also end up with a surviving WRE remnant, without the Ostrogoths in Italy, maybe the Visigoths invade Italy instead of Iberia, which means that the Vandals stay in Andalusia and North Africa stay Roman. So the result could be two surviving Roman remant in Africa one in Cathago and one in Egypt. Linguistic we will likely see the Egypts adopt Greek and the Cathagoans (would likely be called Africans) adopt Latin, while Thrace with a Gothic populationbase on the other side of the Donau becomes Gothic speaking.

 

[Communist Wizard]

Maybe we could also end up with a surviving WRE remnant, without the Ostrogoths in Italy, maybe the Visigoths invade Italy instead of Iberia, which means that the Vandals stay in Andalusia and North Africa stay Roman. So the result could be two surviving Roman remant in Africa one in Cathago and one in Egypt. Linguistic we will likely see the Egypts adopt Greek and the Cathagoans (would likely be called Africans) adopt Latin, while Thrace with a Gothic populationbase on the other side of the Donau becomes Gothic speaking.

Interesting.
What if the WRE does fall, then? Trying to see which is better.

 

[Valdemar II]

Interesting.
What if the WRE does fall, then? Trying to see which is better.

If the WRE fall, let's say because the Burgudians invade and conquer Italy and the Vandal still conquer Mahgreb. We will likely still see a Greek-speaking Roman remnant in Egypt, with capital in Alexandria. North Africa will likely in turn Latin speaking even throught I could also see a Berbian North Africa. Syria (including Palestia) will likely be conquered by the Persian in both cases, while Anatolian will end up being ruled by the Goths, and will likely become (linguistic) a southen Caucasus, a place split between a lot of languages (Kurdish, Greek, Celtic, Gothic, Armenian and Aramaric), of course religeous westen Anatolian will likely turn Arian*, which could result in a linguistic takeover by the Goth, in the same way the Turks did. A strong Ostrogothic state in the Southen Balkan will likely limit Slavic expansion to Pannovia and north of the Donau.

*Likely with a Othodoxs minority which serves as a merchant and bureacrat minority.

 

[Communist Wizard]

If the WRE fall, let's say because the Burgudians invade and conquer Italy and the Vandal still conquer Mahgreb. We will likely still see a Greek-speaking Roman remnant in Egypt, with capital in Alexandria. North Africa will likely in turn Latin speaking even throught I could also see a Berbian North Africa. Syria (including Palestia) will likely be conquered by the Persian in both cases, while Anatolian will end up being ruled by the Goths, and will likely become (linguistic) a southen Caucasus, a place split between a lot of languages (Kurdish, Greek, Celtic, Gothic, Armenian and Aramaric), of course religeous westen Anatolian will likely turn Arian*, which could result in a linguistic takeover by the Goth, in the same way the Turks did. A strong Ostrogothic state in the Southen Balkan will likely limit Slavic expansion to Pannovia and north of the Donau.

*Likely with a Othodoxs minority which serves as a merchant and bureacrat minority.

This is probably more interesting.
Burgundian Italy? Gothic Turkey? Roman Egypt? Berber-Latin Tunisia? Check out 447!
Anyways, I might consider doing this... Feudal Europe would certainly be intreresting...

 

[Communist Wizard]

Question: What would a Gothic Anatolia and Constantinople be called? Gothopolis?

 

[Valdemar II]

Question: What would a Gothic Anatolia and Constantinople be called? Gothopolis?

Good question I was think about it myself, maybe Gothica, Gothland, Gothen, Gothrign or Gothrik but I would choose The Gothic Empire.

 

[Communist Wizard]

Good question I was think about it myself, maybe Gothica, Gothland, Gothen or Gothrik but I would choose The Gothic Empire.

Yep, Gothic Empire sounds better and provides a hint the Goths may want to conquer the Rpman Empire.
However, probably their first job would be to mop up the Byzantines in the East and outrace the Sassanids to the job, who probably have Med. Sea ports in Syria already.
An invgorated Gothic Empire would probably somehow stop the Arabs along with the Sassanids and Aegyptians. The Arabs may focus more south and East then, to India and Africa. A more martime Arabia because of that?

 

[Valdemar II]

Yep, Gothic Empire sounds better and provides a hint the Goths may want to conquer the Rpman Empire.
However, probably their first job would be to mop up the Byzantines in the East and outrace the Sassanids to the job, who probably have Med. Sea ports in Syria already.
An invgorated Gothic Empire would probably somehow stop the Arabs along with the Sassanids and Aegyptians. The Arabs may focus more south and East then, to India and Africa. A more martime Arabia because of that?

They have no where else to go, the Persian sit heavily on the Cresent, while the "Romans" has made Egypt into a fortress. But one thing what will happen to Arabs religeous?

 

[Communist Wizard]

They have no where else to go, the Persian sit heavily on the Cresent, while the "Romans" has made Egypt into a fortress. But one thing what will happen to Arabs religeous?

That is an interesting thought.
While the obvious choice is perhaps a slightly different Islamic religion, one can also postulate that Christian influence from the Goths and Aegyptians might see a more Christian Arab religion.
Or heck, even Manichaeism. 200 years to go...

 

[Communist Wizard]

I'm so lucky there are many Byzantophiles. Here is a map of the Byzantines 476 AD, one year before Atilla invades and captures Constantinople (Gothopolis?).

As well as the large amount of info on Byzantium during this period...
Except it will all be the Gothic Empire!

 

[Communist Wizard]

If the WRE fall, let's say because the Burgudians invade and conquer Italy and the Vandal still conquer Mahgreb. We will likely still see a Greek-speaking Roman remnant in Egypt, with capital in Alexandria. North Africa will likely in turn Latin speaking even throught I could also see a Berbian North Africa. Syria (including Palestia) will likely be conquered by the Persian in both cases, while Anatolian will end up being ruled by the Goths, and will likely become (linguistic) a southen Caucasus, a place split between a lot of languages (Kurdish, Greek, Celtic, Gothic, Armenian and Aramaric), of course religeous westen Anatolian will likely turn Arian*, which could result in a linguistic takeover by the Goth, in the same way the Turks did. A strong Ostrogothic state in the Southen Balkan will likely limit Slavic expansion to Pannovia and north of the Donau.

*Likely with a Othodoxs minority which serves as a merchant and bureacrat minority.

This struck me odd, though.
You said the Vandals were in Maghreb. Why have a Latin-speaking country?