32 county island of Ireland in NATO

[jamsodonnell]

Sparky, Fellatio You're right a bit further north in Connaught would make better sense, although I'm sure that the NSA could have a permanent base on Craggy Island!

As for the GIUK gap Perhaps Ballykelly?

 

[jamsodonnell]

As to fighter power it would depend, would 2 squadrons worth make sense for the investment necessary. The support capabilities of the RIAF I've suggested might be worth more to NATO, particularly if it comes to a trade off.

For Falklands, I'd see Ireland taking over some of the North Atlantic Duties, maybe sending 1 Rover to Gibraltar to refuel RN ships? Also in OTL some of the Belfast's were used to resupply so that might happen. The other point is could the UK "borrow" hulls and tankers for non-combat roles. 1 KC 135 would change the Black Buck mission.

Other than that do you think the OOB is reasonable

The OOB looks good. I presume that the Irish Army would keep regiments like the Munster Fusiliers

As for Korea the Royal Iniskilling Dragoons served there as part of the British contingent (my father's best friend served there driving a Centurion). I like the idea of it being part of the Irish forces sent to Korea even if it weren't equipped with Centurions.

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

Other than that do you think the OOB is reasonable

I think it's very reasonable for a nation as outlined and given its limited budget and geography. I'm no expert, but it doesn't seem way out of proportion.

Forces would reflect ambitions as well as economies. The Type 21s and RFA would suggest participation in blue water operations within and without the entire expanse of the NATO area. If the Irish presence was to be more localised then the large RFA not needed.

I'd think maybe a smaller amphibious vessel(s) than Fearless class, but if purchased alongside the RN ones then makes sense. Would also serve well as training ship, small asw helicopter carrier, flag showing (without tying up a frigate) etc. etc.

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

I'm sure that the NSA could have a permanent base on Craggy Island!

USAF BASE FECKOFF has a ring to it.

 

[sparky42]

The OOB looks good. I presume that the Irish Army would keep regiments like the Munster Fusiliers

As for Korea the Royal Iniskilling Dragoons served there as part of the British contingent (my father's best friend served there driving a Centurion). I like the idea of it being part of the Irish forces sent to Korea even if it weren't equipped with Centurions.

As for the Regiments I suppose it would depend on how the restructuring to a Marine Force went, could they end up hollowed out like some of the Scottish units. Or still retain their identities even after being amalgamated into a single force.

I wonder if this happened what would happen to the Irish forces in the UK?

As for Korea it would be interesting what forces would be deployed, say an Infantry Regiment with some armour support?

I just edited the OOB, I meant the 295 MPA's to give commonality with the tactical transports and factor in 4-6 OPV's of some Domestic type from the Cod War period onwards. Maybe crewed by a mixture of Reserves or Cadets or Private Enterprise.

 

[sparky42]

I think it's very reasonable for a nation as outlined and given its limited budget and geography. I'm no expert, but it doesn't seem way out of proportion.

Forces would reflect ambitions as well as economies. The Type 21s and RFA would suggest participation in blue water operations within and without the entire expanse of the NATO area. If the Irish presence was to be more localised then the large RFA not needed.

I'd think maybe a smaller amphibious vessel(s) than Fearless class, but if purchased alongside the RN ones then makes sense. Would also serve well as training ship, small asw helicopter carrier, flag showing (without tying up a frigate) etc. etc.

That's kind of what I was reaching for no crazy high end systems.

The RFA and "!s give Ireland the ability to support Allied forces which might win favours, "well we don't have the unit to do that but we'll deploy a support vessel for you units".

The reason I suggested another Fearless is with the idea that she's built in Belfast after Fearless herself. It might be a bit much but it does give the RIN and the Marines substantial capabilities.

As I have suggested perhaps there would be some level of support for the UK for the equipment purchases. It suits the UK if there's more of each purchase for upgrade purposes. Perhaps from the Home Rule a decreasing level of support for purchases to aid in the defence of the Approaches. say by the 60's 10-20%

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

All seems good, although a main concern would be maintaining sufficient numbers to crew vessels such as a Fearless class and an RFA in addition to the frigates.

The marine corps would also be quite small if it were to retain a superior status as an 'elite' conventional force such as the Royal Marines commandos: smaller selection of recruits to choose from and these could be whittled down considerably. So maybe only 1 battalion or so of marine commandos with supporting marine units given population size and likely budget. Probably also contain any SF capability too. (This would not be such an issue for the supporting marine units, medics, logististics, artillery, etc, as they would not necessarily need to have passed commando training.)

 

[jamsodonnell]

As for the Regiments I suppose it would depend on how the restructuring to a Marine Force went, could they end up hollowed out like some of the Scottish units. Or still retain their identities even after being amalgamated into a single force.

I wonder if this happened what would happen to the Irish forces in the UK?
.

Depending on the size of the Irish army and with British agreement then perhaps the Royal Irish Regiment could represent the main line infantry of the Irish Army. The Munster Fusiliers, Connaught Rangers etc might be used for reserve units. Cavalry units such as the two Irish Horses and the Iniskilling dragoons et al could be amalgamated into one armoured regiment with individual squadrons representing the tradition of older formations (eg the Iniskilling dragoons are represented by C Squadron of the Royal Dragoons in the current British Army).

Just a thought... but given the circumstances in play an Irish army might be more inclined to retain the traditions of old British Army formations.

 

[sparky42]

All seems good, although a main concern would be maintaining sufficient numbers to crew vessels such as a Fearless class and an RFA in addition to the frigates.

The marine corps would also be quite small if it were to retain a superior status as an 'elite' conventional force such as the Royal Marines commandos: smaller selection of recruits to choose from and these could be whittled down considerably. So maybe only 1 battalion or so of marine commandos with supporting marine units given population size and likely budget. Probably also contain any SF capability too. (This would not be such an issue for the supporting marine units, medics, logististics, artillery, etc, as they would not necessarily need to have passed commando training.)

Combined the naval forces I've put together for 1960-90 adds up to 2,619 men factor in a multiply of 3 you still get less then 10,000, (plus another perhaps 300 for the OPVs) factoring in the larger population base of the a full Ireland that shouldn't be too much

The aircrew for the airframes adds up to about 400 (assuming double crews for each plane, even triple you still end up with about 600-700). How much would you need for other duties in the air Force 5000-6000 perhaps.

For the Marine force perhaps a Battalion as the Amphibious Assault force and the rest as normal troops? as I said figure about 30,000 total for Irish forces so about 10,000 Army (maybe more depending on how much the RIAF would need)

If Portugal can field 40,000 with a population of 10 million, I figure somewhere around 30,000 is a reasonable figure.

 

[sparky42]

Depending on the size of the Irish army and with British agreement then perhaps the Royal Irish Regiment could represent the main line infantry of the Irish Army. The Munster Fusiliers, Connaught Rangers etc might be used for reserve units. Cavalry units such as the two Irish Horses and the Iniskilling dragoons et al could be amalgamated into one armoured regiment with individual squadrons representing the tradition of older formations (eg the Iniskilling dragoons are represented by C Squadron of the Royal Dragoons in the current British Army).

Just a thought... but given the circumstances in play an Irish army might be more inclined to retain the traditions of old British Army formations.

That might be an idea for how to deal with the histories of the units. As for the traditions, I think if Ireland stays in the Commonwealth then this is likely, maybe with a few Irish quirks but I think still connected to the UK forces.

Another assumption I'm making is the officers training and that might be based out of the UK. If you're in NATO and facing WW3 would it make sense to invest in setting up all the infrastructure for that training when you have access to such a larger and better institution right next to them.

 

[Nicola]

Interesting thread. Sorry if I am asking things that have already been dealt with. Qith Ireland a fully contributing memer of NATO I wonder what would end up being based in Ireland rather than say the UK?

Sosus based in Ireland rather than say Brawdy (and then St Mawgan)?

A Naval Air facility on the West coast with P3s (possibly sharing a RIAF base)?

USN faciities at one of former treaty ports?

Shannon with a significant USAF airlift presence (and no Aeroflot stopovers)?

this is exactly the kind of things that this thread and TL is there to explore, it also creates reasons for money to pour in to Ireland in the 50s and 60s to develop these facilities and a steady drip feed of legit US funds in terms of the local spend by the US forces and their employment of local civilians as contractors - also well paid work building the US bases limits the outflow of people post WW2 as there is work , reasonably paid work as well ...

you've suddenly got a large US m/ NATO military airflift facility at Shannon , the Airbase flying these ASW aircraft ( whether they are P3s or Nimrods ) somewhere else in Ireland and adecent sized Facility in a former Treaty port ...

 

[Nicola]

I've put forward suggestion for a Navy and Air Force OOB so the last question is the Irish Army. I have thoughts of something like 10,000 strong Army, based off the Portuguese numbers with modifications to increase Navy and the Air force.

What would be the most likely option that Ireland would be carrying out? Would Ireland have a force in Germany or something else. I have an idea of a Royal Marine type force structure, but that's just my idea. Would that give more value then another Light Infantry Brigade in Western Europe? Assume again that Ireland selects British Equipment just for a bench mark.

What Helicopters would Ireland pick and would that make any difference to production runs. I'm assuming Lynx and Sea King (the Naval variant).

In terms of a RFA would it make sense to have say 1-2 Rover class and then following on to 1 Fort Victoria in modern times.

as others have suggested perhaps a significant part of the Irish land forces form part of the 'winter warfare' capability along with the Dutch and (british) Royal Marines and are consquently trained to the higher levels of the RM green beret vs the ordinary Infanteer.

potentially a mixed ( regular and territorial ) 'normal ' light infantry force exists - whether these boys and girls do UN stuff depends on their role aside from being the resident infantry on the island of Ireland

If the elite part of the Irish infantry were integrated with the Dutch and RM in the winter war roles then sea king and lynx would be the obvious choices for compatibility as well as land rovers and BV206 - but it also depends on who holds the purse strings if the Irish purchases are subsidised by the US which leads the irish 'armoured' formations running armoured BV 206 then the BvS10 ...

 

[Nicola]

USAF BASE FECKOFF has a ring to it.

now that would be an ecumenical matter ...

 

[sparky42]

as others have suggested perhaps a significant part of the Irish land forces form part of the 'winter warfare' capability along with the Dutch and (british) Royal Marines and are consquently trained to the higher levels of the RM green beret vs the ordinary Infanteer.

potentially a mixed ( regular and territorial ) 'normal ' light infantry force exists - whether these boys and girls do UN stuff depends on their role aside from being the resident infantry on the island of Ireland

If the elite part of the Irish infantry were integrated with the Dutch and RM in the winter war roles then sea king and lynx would be the obvious choices for compatibility as well as land rovers and BV206 - but it also depends on who holds the purse strings if the Irish purchases are subsidised by the US which leads the irish 'armoured' formations running armoured BV 206 then the BvS10 ...

Bare in mind that Ireland has Timoney industries as well. In OTL they do suspension and Drive Trains for APC's so maybe they also start making BV 206's under licence.

By this time (1960's) Ireland could most likely pay for 206's without undue strain on the budget I think. Besides if they select the Fearless type it would make more sense as the US marine hardware is much larger then the 206/210's

Maybe some of CVR(T) family for the other needs of the Irish Army for Northern Deployments without going to the very expensive hardware of MBT's

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

Can't imagine the Irish would have much need for proper tanks - unlike the similarly sized Belgians/Danes, who'd like them and invest considerably in them instead of naval forces as they face the Soviet tanks streaming across from Germany!

Troop carriers and light tanks for the marines, maybe, with remainder for use on UN missions and held back in reserve in Ireland; rest of regular Irish army could be a small light infantry brigade sized-formation, for use at home and overseas missions and/or to reinforce southern flank of NATO (like Portuguese land role was) in wartime, augmented by reservists. There was a significant fear of Spetsnaz raids at outset of any WW3, so need to be available to reinforce vulnerable sites against attack.

Think the costs of permanently stationing troops in Germany/BeNeLux nations would be too great to bear unless assisted.
Don't forget some of the smaller nations had conscript forces of varying qualities until quite recently: don't need to pay conscripts a competitive wage and increments.

 

[sparky42]

Can't imagine the Irish would have much need for proper tanks - unlike the similarly sized Belgians/Danes, who'd like them and invest considerably in them instead of naval forces as they face the Soviet tanks streaming across from Germany!

Troop carriers and light tanks for the marines, maybe, with remainder for use on UN missions and held back in reserve in Ireland. (There was a significant fear of Spetsnaz raids at outset of any WW3, so need to be available to reinforce vulnerably sites against attack.

Don't forget some of the smaller nations had conscript forces of varying qualities until quite recently: don't need to pay conscripts a competitive wage and increments.

That's why I was suggesting the CVR family, maybe a mixture of 76mm Scorpions/Striker Antitank/Samson recovery vehicle. with Stormers later on if needed.

These are all light vehicles that could augment the BV's in deployments without being highly expensive.

As for conscripts I think Ireland would follow the lead of the UK and US in that, maybe split the difference in how long it was kept.

 

[Nicola]

Can't imagine the Irish would have much need for proper tanks - unlike the similarly sized Belgians/Danes, who'd like them and invest considerably in them instead of naval forces as they face the Soviet tanks streaming across from Germany!

Troop carriers and light tanks for the marines, maybe, with remainder for use on UN missions and held back in reserve in Ireland; rest of regular Irish army could be a small light infantry brigade sized-formation, for use at home and overseas missions and/or to reinforce southern flank of NATO (like Portuguese land role was) in wartime, augmented by reservists. There was a significant fear of Spetsnaz raids at outset of any WW3, so need to be available to reinforce vulnerable sites against attack.

hence the armoured forces of the irish being posited as armoured BV 206 > BvS10s iff the irish commandoes were using BVs in their Winter warfare role with the RM and Dutch

Think the costs of permanently stationing troops in Germany/BeNeLux nations would be too great to bear unless assisted.
Don't forget some of the smaller nations had conscript forces of varying qualities until quite recently: don't need to pay conscripts a competitive wage and increments.

if it was NATO it would be somewhat underwritten by NATO / US funding - the main reason the British Amry is still in Gemrany is that until the current draw downs are complete there isn't space in the UK without purchasing more land / building / serious refurbisihing new bases ( yes there are camps and training areas that could take the returning units but they don;t have the infrastructure on camp nor do they have acceptable accomodation for the livers in ( as SFA shortages can always be 'solved' by renting on the civil economy)

 

[jamsodonnell]

That might be an idea for how to deal with the histories of the units. As for the traditions, I think if Ireland stays in the Commonwealth then this is likely, maybe with a few Irish quirks but I think still connected to the UK forces.

Another assumption I'm making is the officers training and that might be based out of the UK. If you're in NATO and facing WW3 would it make sense to invest in setting up all the infrastructure for that training when you have access to such a larger and better institution right next to them.

NATO membership allows for a lot of secondment opportunitiess and joint training exercises.

Depending on the service I would imagine that the bulk of basic officer training would be undertaken in-house in Ireland although I would imagine that the Irish Army would be well in attendance at places like the Staff College in Camberley.

If the Irish navy has a marines unit perhaps these might be trained at the Commando Centre. It is the hardest basic training anywhere.

I presume that there will be a small SBS like section in lieu of the ARW?

 

[sparky42]

NATO membership allows for a lot of secondment opportunitiess and joint training exercises.

Depending on the service I would imagine that the bulk of basic officer training would be undertaken in-house in Ireland although I would imagine that the Irish Army would be well in attendance at places like the Staff College in Camberley.

If the Irish navy has a marines unit perhaps these might be trained at the Commando Centre. It is the hardest basic training anywhere.

I presume that there will be a small SBS like section in lieu of the ARW?

I suppose for basic training it depends, for the Air Force given the non combat roles the RIAF will be doing should they absorb the cost of setting up light trainers for an around 100-150 pilots in total service. (so what a dozen a year). Maybe for helicopters pilots it would make sense for a full training system due to the larger number of units. Maybe when you get to modern simulators some in Ireland would be tied into the training systems in the UK.

For the Navy I can see doing it in Ireland (though Cork Harbour would have to be massively changed for the increased hulls and numbers), and then specialist training in the UK.

For the Army again basic training I could see but after that I think you'd have to use the larger training system of the UK. (the Glen of Imaal will take a pounding in this).

I imagine that an attempt would be made to develop some level of Special forces, and with the decision to go to a Marine style force the SBS makes sense. (It could also be Ireland being unique as the other Commonwealth nations have SAS)

 

[jamsodonnell]

I suppose for basic training it depends, for the Air Force given the non combat roles the RIAF will be doing should they absorb the cost of setting up light trainers for an around 100-150 pilots in total service. (so what a dozen a year). Maybe for helicopters pilots it would make sense for a full training system due to the larger number of units. Maybe when you get to modern simulators some in Ireland would be tied into the training systems in the UK.

For the Navy I can see doing it in Ireland (though Cork Harbour would have to be massively changed for the increased hulls and numbers), and then specialist training in the UK.

For the Army again basic training I could see but after that I think you'd have to use the larger training system of the UK. (the Glen of Imaal will take a pounding in this).

I imagine that an attempt would be made to develop some level of Special forces, and with the decision to go to a Marine style force the SBS makes sense. (It could also be Ireland being unique as the other Commonwealth nations have SAS)

THe Irish military is going to need more and bigger training areas, not all can be located in Ireland... That said I wouldn't cry if the Boggerahs were handed over to the army.... oh and Dingle too