2nd Mongol invasion of Japan done right?

[Kayin Dreemurr]

Suppose Kublai Khan takes the time to properly build an invasion force, say giving the chinese shipbuilders 3 to 5 years instead of the less then 1 he originally gave them.

So, do the Mongol's then have the ability to properly invade Japan (not necessarily defeat and conquer, but invade and do some real damage)?

 

[Wolfpaw]

IIRC, it was actually the first invasion that had a much better chance of succeeding; the Japanese were ready the second time around. As for gains, I could see the Mongols getting Kyushu, but I don't foresee a Khan in Kyoto.


Sumeragi's the real expert on this, though.

 

[freethinker]

The Forgotten Latium

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]i doubt it would ever work

 

[freethinker]

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/File:Sygarius_485.PNGit would probrobly only weaken the mongols

 

[Elfwine]

Southern angels.

See, this is why checking for typos is something the Grammar Nazis insist on so much.

Also, what is a story of Roman Britain doing on a thread on the Mongols invading Japan?

 

[freethinker]

Southern angels.

See, this is why checking for typos is something the Grammar Nazis insist on so much.

Also, what is a story of Roman Britain doing on a thread on the Mongols invading Japan?

oh shit.. I am such a retard
my bad

 

[St. Just]

He mustve accidentally posted it as a reply rather than a thread, seeing the boxes to look the same.

 

[freethinker]

He mustve accidentally posted it as a reply rather than a thread, seeing the boxes to look the same.

yeah that was it.. then I was wondering where I my thread was

 

[Sumeragi]

IIRC, it was actually the first invasion that had a much better chance of succeeding; the Japanese were ready the second time around. As for gains, I could see the Mongols getting Kyushu, but I don't foresee a Khan in Kyoto.

I doubt they would have gotten even Kyushu. While the Japanese were outnumbered, they had the advantage of being in fortified positions. In addition, the Mongol strategy was not some broad assault as they did in the first invasion, but more a multiple landing one which played into the Japanese advantage. Having too many men (initial starting force of 140,000) actually hindered the Mongol operation rather than help it.

Furthermore, it was the design of the ship, not the construction time, that doomed the Mongols during the typhoon. The Song barely used sea-worth ship, instead focusing on the flat-bottomed river boats. As indicated by records, it was almost only the Goryeo sea-going boats that survived the typhoon and returned home.

Sumeragi's the real expert on this, though.

Thanks for the compliment.

 

[Wolfpaw]

I doubt they would have gotten even Kyushu. While the Japanese were outnumbered, they had the advantage of being in fortified positions. In addition, the Mongol strategy was not some broad assault as they did in the first invasion, but more a multiple landing one which played into the Japanese advantage. Having too many men (initial starting force of 140,000) actually hindered the Mongol operation rather than help it.

Oh, I was still talkin' 'bout the first try in 1274. Do you think the Mongols could've taken Kyushu in that attempt?

Furthermore, it was the design of the ship, not the construction time, that doomed the Mongols during the typhoon. The Song barely used sea-worth ship, instead focusing on the flat-bottomed river boats. As indicated by records, it was almost only the Goryeo sea-going boats that survived the typhoon and returned home.

I never cease to be impressed by Korean naval prowess. Was there much Korean involvement/influence with the wokou?

Thanks for the compliment.

Truth is truth, Suma-chan.

 

[LeX]

It seems like the Mongols werent very good with water. I think the first time I read about where the term kamikaze came from I wondered if the Mongolians (or Chinese) were very good at building oceangoing ships, which, it turns out, they weren't.

Truth is truth, Suma-chan.

Isn't it supposed to be like "Sumeragi-heika" or something?

 

[Sumeragi]

Oh, I was still talkin' 'bout the first try in 1274. Do you think the Mongols could've taken Kyushu in that attempt?

Yes, if they hadn't boarded their ships during the typhoon. There seemed to have been a clash between the Koreans (who advocated staying on land) and the Mongols (going back onto the ships), and OTL was decided by the Mongols. With the Japanese forces having their back to the wall (only one fortress remained), an intact invasion force would have been able to conquer Kyushu and perhaps head for Western Honshu.

I never cease to be impressed by Korean naval prowess. Was there much Korean involvement/influence with the wokou?

Can you be more exact in that question?

Truth is truth, Suma-chan.

Isn't it supposed to be like "Sumeragi-heika" or something?

I prefer Sume-chan if you wish to use -chan.

 

[LeX]

I prefer Sume-chan if you wish to use -chan.

We're using English, so I'll make a point of avoiding file extensions, I mean, honorifics.

 

[Kayin Dreemurr]

I doubt they would have gotten even Kyushu. While the Japanese were outnumbered, they had the advantage of being in fortified positions. In addition, the Mongol strategy was not some broad assault as they did in the first invasion, but more a multiple landing one which played into the Japanese advantage. Having too many men (initial starting force of 140,000) actually hindered the Mongol operation rather than help it.

Furthermore, it was the design of the ship, not the construction time, that doomed the Mongols during the typhoon. The Song barely used sea-worth ship, instead focusing on the flat-bottomed river boats. As indicated by records, it was almost only the Goryeo sea-going boats that survived the typhoon and returned home.



Thanks for the compliment.

Okay, so what changes would be needed to have the first invasion be successful? (again, not necessarily conquering Japan, but succeeding in invading Japan.)

 

[Sumeragi]

Okay, so what changes would be needed to have the first invasion be successful? (again, not necessarily conquering Japan, but succeeding in invading Japan.)

Don't get on the ships. Really, the thing was that Kyushu was about to fall, with reinforcement being weeks away. One more push by the Mongol-Goryeo forces would have meant complete occupation of Kyushu.

 

[Chairwoman Roxelana]

It seems like the Mongols werent very good with water. I think the first time I read about where the term kamikaze came from I wondered if the Mongolians (or Chinese) were very good at building oceangoing ships, which, it turns out, they weren't.

They were able to attack Java once, but Majapahit defeated them.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I never cease to be impressed by Korean naval prowess. Was there much Korean involvement/influence with the wokou?Truth is truth, Suma-chan.

Isn't it supposed to be like "Sumeragi-heika" or something?

I prefer Sume-chan if you wish to use -chan.

OK, I will admit I know little Japanese, but isn't "-chan" awfully familiar for use on these fora? I had understood it to translate as "dear/darling"...

 

[Wolfpaw]

OK, I will admit I know little Japanese, but isn't "-chan" awfully familiar for use on these fora? I had understood it to translate as "dear/darling"...

A bit presumptuous, perhaps, but I prefer amiable familiarity to staid reservedness.

 

[Wolfpaw]

I do wonder, though, what the Mongol plans were for Kyushu. Would they set up a client state, or just make it a provincial extension of Goryeo? Would the island be largely administered by Mongols, Chinese, Koreans, or local Japanese? How would a Mongol-Goryeo invasion of Honshu work out?

 

[kuroda]

I can't speak to the military tactics or operational-level history (allo- or alt-), but just wanted to pipe up with the footnote that not only were the boats and sailors non-Mongols, but the vast majority of the troops were also Koreans and Chinese. I started to say that they never get due credit for their participation -- and then remembered that (OTL at least) it didn't actually go so well, after all ;(