2018 Turtledoves - Best Cold War to Contemporary Timeline Poll FINAL

Which is the best Cold War to Contemporary Timeline:

  • No Southern Strategy: The Political Ramifications of an Alternate 1964 Election; Gonzo and Nofix

    Votes: 123 34.6%
  • New Deal Coalition Retained: A Sixth Party Systen Wikibox Timeline; The Congressman

    Votes: 96 27.0%
  • Blue Skies in Camelot: An Alternate 60's and Beyond; President_Lincoln

    Votes: 72 20.3%
  • TLIAW: Presidential; Callan

    Votes: 100 28.2%
  • Massively Multiplayer : Gaming in the New Millenium; RySenkari and Nivek

    Votes: 63 17.7%
  • The Third Coming of Nixon; Apocatequil

    Votes: 54 15.2%
  • Protect and Survive Miami: End of Watch; wolverinethad

    Votes: 26 7.3%
  • The Way the Wind Blows The Collapse of Western Civilization; Maponus

    Votes: 33 9.3%
  • The World Turned Upside Down: A US Election TL; Seleucus

    Votes: 101 28.5%
  • Lazarus, Icarus, and Canadian Politics: An Infobox Timeline; CanadianTory

    Votes: 81 22.8%
  • Who will speak for England; BrotherSideways

    Votes: 50 14.1%
  • TLIAD: If You Want To Know Where You Are; Uhura's Mazda

    Votes: 53 14.9%
  • I Have Never Been a Quitter: the Impeachment of Richard Nixon; dartingfog

    Votes: 41 11.5%
  • Españoles en Vietnam: Franco's last war; Kurt_Steiner

    Votes: 46 13.0%
  • Prussia - A Kaliningrad Story (Post WWII USSR Timeline); Remitonov

    Votes: 27 7.6%

  • Total voters
    355
  • Poll closed .
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SsgtC

Banned
Popular alternate history is not necessarily good alternate history
That depends on what you consider "good." Personally, I'd rather read a TL that's entertaining, but semi-implausible, than one that is extremely plausible, but not very entertaining. Combining the two is the absolute best, of course. But for a tale to be entertaining, or to explore something the author really wants to see, those two may sometimes be mutually exclusive
 

Deleted member 83898

@Seleucus @skaven
doing something right.

Anyhow, I think we have a different demographic here on the AH board, one that 1) has a great deal of experience with AH and 2) has a more finely tuned "ear" for good AH than the general public (Turtledove readers).

If NDCR doesn't match your standards of "good" AH, then that's your opinion. However, "good" is subjective, and about 70 people feel that NDCR is good enough of a timeline to merit their support.
 
I think I'm in sixth place.
Don't let that get you down, my Canadian friend. Setting aside the fact that getting nominated for a Turtledove is itself a high honor, and a sign that your work is highly admired; setting aside the fact that you made it to the second round; setting aside even the fact that sixth place in the crowded Cold War to Contemporary category is an impressive achievement. Don't judge the value of your timeline by the number next to its name on an online message board poll. If you're writing here for the right reasons—that is, because you like doing it, because you are passionate about history, and because it's fun—and you're satisfied with your work, then the whims of other people should have little bearing on your own opinion of your timeline. I don't mean close yourself off to criticism, of course, but retain the conviction to know when you've created something kickass. At the risk of sounding overly sentimental, the moment you start judging the worth of your work by a faceless number is often the moment you lose confidence in your abilities.

I haven't even read your TL yet, but looking through it you've clearly put a lot of time into those wikiboxes. And Lady Layton as Mayor of Toronto is enough for my vote.
 
@Seleucus @skaven


Anyhow, I think we have a different demographic here on the AH board, one that 1) has a great deal of experience with AH and 2) has a more finely tuned "ear" for good AH than the general public (Turtledove readers).

If NDCR doesn't match your standards of "good" AH, then that's your opinion. However, "good" is subjective, and about 70 people feel that NDCR is good enough of a timeline to merit their support.

If they had a better ear for AH, they wouldn't lap up a TL with all the flaws enumerated earlier in the thread.
 
@Seleucus @skaven


Anyhow, I think we have a different demographic here on the AH board, one that 1) has a great deal of experience with AH and 2) has a more finely tuned "ear" for good AH than the general public (Turtledove readers).

If NDCR doesn't match your standards of "good" AH, then that's your opinion. However, "good" is subjective, and about 70 people feel that NDCR is good enough of a timeline to merit their support.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
 

Sulemain

Banned
If you want a TL that stays in the box and seeks a rigid hewing to established tropes, then my TL is not for you. Ironic, considering Rumsfeldia never got so much hate for being far more iconoclastic and spotty with regard to the plausibility police (no knock on Rumsfeldia, for I like it when TLs push the envelope)

Rumsfeldia got a lot of criticism for going so weird compared to it's predecessor.
Plausibility is one thing. Your TL is frankly poorly researched, often bigoted, and treats actual historical people in entirely stupid ways, or makes them act in entirely stupid ways.
You've not pushed the envelope or come out of the box. You've torn up the envelope and set the box on fire.
 

Sulemain

Banned
Again, he just. Wouldn't. Do this.

Mandela would never have done a deal to be effectively part of an Apartheid regime, no matter what the context, as it would've gone against almost everything he stood for. And it's hard to see how exactly the South African government is bucking it's reactionary elements when Andries Treurnicht is the Prime Minister.

I do hope you win, and fwiw I'll be getting Presidential on my Kindle for my Birthday.
 
If you want a TL that stays in the box and seeks a rigid hewing to established tropes, then my TL is not for you. Ironic, considering Rumsfeldia never got so much hate for being far more iconoclastic and spotty with regard to the plausibility police (no knock on Rumsfeldia, for I like it when TLs push the envelope)
1. Every time your TL is criticized you say that Rumsfeldia never got this much hate. I have no idea where you get the idea that people are giving Rumsfeldia a free pass from. Actually, aside from your TL I can't think of a TL that has gotten more criticism than Rumsfeldia. This is an anecdote, but every discussion I've had about Rumsfeldia has seen someone declare that it jumped the shark or is ridiculously implausible.

2. There's a big difference between thinking outside of the box and forsaking plausibility completely. An example of the former is in Presidential by Callan, where Mickey Leland becomes President of the United States. I've never seen that happen in a TL before, and I (and apparently most of the readers) hadn't heard of him before this. However, it could have happened given the right circumstances, and Callan lays out how it happened. Meanwhile the Soviets deciding to let Czechoslovakia go is the latter. It makes no sense whatsoever, and is done not because there's an in-story reason for it, but because you want it to happen. No one is saying that you can't do unique things, but there has to be a reason for them to happen beyond author fiat. Running things by author fiat, ignoring previously established characterization, and refusing to listen to criticism aren't just signs of bad AH writing, they're signs of bad writing period.
 

Heavy

Banned
I liked Presidential best, but I voted for No Southern Strategy as well. They are both good. I haven't read most of the rest so I didn't vote for them, and some I have read a bit of, but didn't really think were very good, so I didn't vote for them either.
 
Well, for a while there in the first poll when Massively Multiplayer was running neck and neck with No Southern Strategy and New Deal Coalition Retained, I thought we might just pull this off! Now Massively Multiplayer's nestled into seventh place and a few dozen votes back. Still, to make it this far is something I consider quite an accomplishment, it's significantly better than we did last year!

Pop culture timelines aren't for everyone, and the scope of Massively Multiplayer is fairly narrow: it's 90 percent games and 10 percent everything else. It's definitely more of a "deep" TL than a "wide" TL, and doesn't have the appeal that a lot of the political timelines do. So I'm not surprised that we're somewhat in the middle of the pack. Maybe next year will go our way!
 

Redcoat

Banned
Ironic, considering Rumsfeldia never got so much hate for being far more iconoclastic and spotty with regard to the plausibility police (no knock on Rumsfeldia, for I like it when TLs push the envelope)
Well Rumsfeldia did get hate. I'm still not exactly sure why it's so popular but I'm thinking that it's because
A.) The POD is when America was considered to be at its "high point", so the fact that it's at this time of all times makes it shocking.
B.) It's pretty interesting to see how America to descend into a dystopia, it's sorta like the spiritual successor of "It can't happen here".

It does have some plausibility issues but plausibility isn't really completely what it's looking for. I love well detailed alt-hist no matter the plausibility of it. Part of what I like about TTL is all the weird shit that ends up happening. Like the Neo-Incans that do human sacrifice. That would never happen in a million year OTL.
 

Redcoat

Banned
Well, for a while there in the first poll when Massively Multiplayer was running neck and neck with No Southern Strategy and New Deal Coalition Retained, I thought we might just pull this off! Now Massively Multiplayer's nestled into seventh place and a few dozen votes back. Still, to make it this far is something I consider quite an accomplishment, it's significantly better than we did last year!

Pop culture timelines aren't for everyone, and the scope of Massively Multiplayer is fairly narrow: it's 90 percent games and 10 percent everything else. It's definitely more of a "deep" TL than a "wide" TL, and doesn't have the appeal that a lot of the political timelines do. So I'm not surprised that we're somewhat in the middle of the pack. Maybe next year will go our way!
I mean, I am absolutely not a video game person by any stretch of its definition, but I thought it was quite enjoyable. Not like a lot of the pop culture TL's.
 

Heavy

Banned
I am also in competition with New Deal Coalition Retained in the Finished TL poll, which you can access via the link in my signature. :)
 
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All these people are liking my posts in this thread, but I'm not actually getting any new votes from it :p

If you're interested, my timeline is in my signature - it takes the "contemporary" part of the category seriously, and has the distinction of being perhaps one of the only timelines to predict a multitude of real-life events before they actually happened [so much that I wrote a joke ending riffing off of that fact]
 
All these people are liking my posts in this thread, but I'm not actually getting any new votes from it :p

I totally did need a push to read a timeline with that close a POD, to be fair, given how whack the real world is anyway. What a funhouse mirror ride though.
 

Redcoat

Banned
Let's not forget how NDCR treats the Soviet Union: Khrushchev holds power till 1967 (which since there's no Cuban Missile Crisis is somewhat justifiable), and when the Prague Spring breaks out he lets the Czech Republic go and join NATO (for some reason Slovakia splits with the Czech Republic and stays in the Warsaw Pact). This leads to a coup against Khrushchev, who gets replaced KGB chief Vladimir Semichastny. Semichastny then proceeds to fix the Sino-Soviet Split, makes the USSR Neo-Trotskyist, the converts to Christianity after a near-death experience and tries to take the USSR down from the inside. Later Alexander Solzhenitsyn joins the Politburo. At some point this government is overthrown by the hardliners, who start WWIII on very flimsy circumstances. Now obviously this isn't offensive like the treatment of Mandela was, but as a Soviet nerd it really got my goat because:

1. It's never explained why the Soviets don't intervene in the Prague Spring. Like, the TL literally says "Why Khrushchev hesitated to order the Red Army in to crush what was being called the Prague Spring is a question banded about by modern historians. No one can agree on an answer, and with the events that happened afterwards the question would never be solved." There Soviets have a multitude of reasons to invade, and very little reason not to. The Slovaks also have little reason to secede, as Slovakia was Dubcek's political base and was controlled by his allies.

2. Semichastny as leader is odd. Semichastny was KGB chairman, and going straight from the KGB to the post of General Secretary was unheard of (someone will say Andropov, but he became Second Secretary at the very end of the Brezhnev years). More importantly, there were much stronger candidates to lead the coup and become General Secretary, including: Leonid Brezhnev, Nikolai Podgorny, Mikhail Suslov (although he didn't want the General Secretary job he could still lead the coup), and Alexander Shelepin (who's also Semichastny's political mentor, and thus Semichastny would logically defer to him). Again, it's never explained why these figures didn't lead the coup. That said, compared to the rest of the events related to the Soviet Union in this TL this is a pretty minor point.

3. Fixing the Sino-Soviet Split wouldn't happen with Jiang Qing in charge. The whole idea rests on Jiang Qing betraying the Gang of Four, which is unlikely because that's her political base and she's built a reputation as a hardliner. Once again, it's never explained why Jiang Qing changes sides. Finally, one of the biggest causes of the Sino-Soviet Split was that the Chinese and Soviets were fighting over the leadership of the Communist world. Neither side is going to abandon that struggle, particularly when both sides are controlled by hardliners.

USSR becoming Neo-Trotskyist makes no sense. Trotsky's ideas were despised in the USSR, since he basically called the Soviet government illegitimate (and implementing his ideas would have meant radical changes that no one wanted to make). It's worth noting that not only was Trotsky never rehabilitated by the USSR, but his assassin was given a Hero of the Soviet Union award after his release in 1961 (funder Khrushchev). Also, the Trotskyism described in NDCR bears little relation to how Trotskyism is practiced. ITTL the Soviets adopt what is essentially the idea of Permanent Revolution, but Permanent Revolution is not all there is to Trotskyism (another major element is the opposition to the sort of bureaucracy that had evolved in the Soviet Union). At best political scientists and historians would say that an aggressive foreign policy bears some resemblance to Trotsky's idea of Permanent Revolution. But no one would call it Neo-Trotskyist, least of all the Soviets themselves.

5. Solzhenitsyn would never join the government of the Soviet Union even (as the TL says) to take it down from the inside. That would require keeping his mouth shut, and Solzhenitsyn was the kind of person who made his opinion known. The Politburo also doesn't have much reason to let Solzhenitsyn in. Even if we assume that the General Secretary has undergone a sea-change and become a radical reformer, the rest of the Politburo hasn't. They're not going to let an ex-Gulag inmate with no government experience, and who isn't even a member of the Party, become part of the Politburo. The whole situation has the same issue as Nelson Mandela working with apartheid did: it requires everyone involved to radically change their motivations and go against common sense.

There's a lot more I could get into, but you get the idea.
About the 4th one, the USSR is under Focoism.
 
honestly don't understand the hate for NDCR going on in this thread. For starters if it truly was something impossible it would've been moved to writers or ASB(see Gudestein's Hitler's Zweites Buch TL) In fact the main problem is that people are confusing implausible with impossible. For example with a PoD post-WW1 Sea Lion is impossible no ifs, ands or buts however something like the German invasion of the Soviets succeeding with a PoD during the war while implausible is not impossible. Are the odds of it happening slim as hell? Yes they are but given the right circumstances it could happen. I mean FFS if you wanna be truthful if you visited an ATL where lets say the US war of independence failed and wrote a TL that was literally OTL's history from wherever the change happened you'd be getting claims for it being ASB or being impossible. So if you're gonna get made over the stuff being implausible just remember that being implausible doesn't mean impossible.



Also I voted NDCR because while I truthfully like NSS better then it NSS doesn't update enough anymore IMO to earn my vote. Hell the only reason I believe it's even on here is just because of the early days of the story. If it started at the update pace it's going at now I doubt it'd even have been considered for a Turtledove.
 
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