1982 World Cup - Keegan and Brooking fit

[oldironside]

After qualifying for the first time since 1970 (and actually going through a qualifying group for the first time since 1962), England won a potentially tricky first round group with maximum points, only to go out in the second round group with two goalless draw against West Germany and an uninspired Spanish side.

Since England played almost the entire tournament without Keegan and Brooking (what Ron Greenwood called the engine room of the side), how far could they have gone if both had been available? It wasn't a bad side without them, but they certainly would have added something.

Note a young and hirsute Ray Wilkins, Peter Withe still unable to believe he's got a European Cup Winner's medal, and Trevor Francis looking like a convict trying out an electric chair.

Here's a glimpse of Keegan and Brooking in action against Italy in 1977.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDVGoEQoEJU

 

[Romantic Nihilist]

We had a great squad that year. A victory over West Germany would have set us on our way.

I believe we could have played anyone and ran out winners. We thrashed France, for example.

Keegan being fit? If things go OTL then he won't miss that sitter against Spain. If we win the tournament, Greenwood might stay on as manager. Or, Bobby takes over and he's forced to keep Keegan on as failure to qualify for EURO 84 without him might signal an earlier departure.

 

[oldironside]

We had a great squad that year. A victory over West Germany would have set us on our way.

I believe we could have played anyone and ran out winners. We thrashed France, for example.

Keegan being fit? If things go OTL then he won't miss that sitter against Spain. If we win the tournament, Greenwood might stay on as manager. Or, Bobby takes over and he's forced to keep Keegan on as failure to qualify for EURO 84 without him might signal an earlier departure.

Ah, yes, I remember it well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTqxFPHEzns

Not at all sure Greenwood would have stayed on. He was already in semi-retirement when he got the England job. Sir Bobby was the natural choice to replace him.

 

[Romantic Nihilist]

Ah, yes, I remember it well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTqxFPHEzns

Not at all sure Greenwood would have stayed on. He was already in semi-retirement when he got the England job. Sir Bobby was the natural choice to replace him.

Robson! And a goal!

Probably his best tournament for us. Since then, he sadly reverted to type and got injured way too many times.

How about an earlier POD where Don Revie leaves after the failure to qualify for EURO 76? Greenwood gets us to ARGENTINA 78 and we do well, thus extending his contract?

One question remains: would we do any better in EURO 84? If we qualify, it butterflies away Barnes's wonder goal against Brazil and thus, he doesn't have that impossible expectation on his shoulders every time he plays.

 

[oldironside]

Robson! And a goal!

Probably his best tournament for us. Since then, he sadly reverted to type and got injured way too many times.

How about an earlier POD where Don Revie leaves after the failure to qualify for EURO 76? Greenwood gets us to ARGENTINA 78 and we do well, thus extending his contract?

One question remains: would we do any better in EURO 84? If we qualify, it butterflies away Barnes's wonder goal against Brazil and thus, he doesn't have that impossible expectation on his shoulders every time he plays.

Even having read Disrepute and taking into account the long term injuries to Beatty, Bell and Francis (Gerry, that is) I'm still mystified as to why Revie didn't make a better job of it. He was the prototype of the modern football manager thirty years before his time. Totally professional, totally prepared. It's like Slur Alex modelled himself on Revie.

In '84 England were mugged by a very good Danish team featuring names such as Michael Laudrup, Jesper Olsen, Alan Simonson, and Jan Molby. They took 3 points from the two games (only two points for a win in those days). This the only goal from the match at Wembley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2lxdqHHLUk

I have to say, that was a very harsh penalty.

However, the real killer for England was a 0-0 against Greece at Wembley, and that after we'd beaten them 3-0 at their place. A win there and we'd have been equal with Denmark on points, but with a goal difference at least +9 better, so it wouldn't have taken much for England to qualify.

 

[Romantic Nihilist]

We were caught between two great squads. Keegan wasn't picked and Lineker was yet to emerge. Every team has that one player who can make something from nothing.

 

[oldironside]

We were caught between two great squads. Keegan wasn't picked and Lineker was yet to emerge. Every team has that one player who can make something from nothing.

To be fair to them, the 1984 squad did include players such as a 25 year old Brian Robson, a 25 year old Glenn Hoddle, and a 28 year old Trevor Francis. The back four was still Neal, Thompson, Butcher and Sansom.

I agree that a great team needs a player who can make a difference on the day, but I just wonder why so many of them seem to think that the laws of the game don't apply to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eZhBCqh8l8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB7Y33VteME

To be fair about the second one, Monzon had to go. That's what's known in sports reporter's parlance as a scything lunge. On the other hand, Klinsmann really should be ashamed of himself. He should have been booked, and Equity should have picketed every subsequent appearance he made in England for the worst piece of acting in a professional capacity since Ali was in Eastenders.

 

[RobinCarmody]

In contrast to 1978, I can't see this one changing the wider world, as long as everything else was the same. It would simply have strengthened a change in national mood which was there anyway because of the Falklands.

otoh if that war either hadn't happened or had been lost, then an England win could fill the gap ... and obviously Argentina's dismal performance, considering that they won the two World Cups either side, has a great deal to do with their sudden demoralisation after losing a war they thought would be a cakewalk - they admitted that themselves at the time. Take that out and maybe they reach the semi-finals or final and meet England there ...

It's also worth discussing whether English football could have found some way out of its mid-1980s nadir if England had won this World Cup, or whether this was already too late for those other factors to be overcome.

 

[oldironside]

It's also worth discussing whether English football could have found some way out of its mid-1980s nadir if England had won this World Cup, or whether this was already too late for those other factors to be overcome.

And there I think you've hinted at a very interesting PoD. A much more successful World Cup in '82 (even the semis or losing finalists) could change a lot of things.

Charles Hughes didn't become the FA Director of Coaching until 1990, so his Neanderthal philosophy of hoofing the ball forward could well have been ignored if there hadn't been the perception that the English game was in crisis. The English top flight's relentless march backwards during the 90s could also never have happened.

Think of it. No Crazy Gang. No Watford in the top flight. George Graham's Arsenal would only exist in a dreadful distopian alternate reality. Graham Taylor would never have been England manager.

There's a timeline I'd like to live in.

 

[Romantic Nihilist]

The 1984 England team reminds me of the team Taylor had in 92-94. Some great players emerging (Shearer) with some proven favourites sadly injured (Pearce, Gazza) and some players who missed out (Andy Cole, Le Tissier).

Hindsight really is a bitch.

 

[oldironside]

The 1984 England team reminds me of the team Taylor had in 92-94. Some great players emerging (Shearer) with some proven favourites sadly injured (Pearce, Gazza) and some players who missed out (Andy Cole, Le Tissier).

Hindsight really is a bitch.

I think on balance that the '84 team is far superior, on paper at least. It could have lined up:

1. Clemence (or Shilton)
2. Phil Neal
3. Kenny Sansom
4. Ray Wilkins,
5. Gary Mabbutt
6. Terry Butcher
7. Bryan Robson
8. Trevor Francis
9. Paul Mariner
10. Glenn Hoddle
11. John Barnes

So, Wilkins on the right side of midfield, and no real weaknesses apart from a shortage of pace at the back. If only Mark Lawrenson had chosen England.

 

[Romantic Nihilist]

Bryan Robson... if he'd have kept form and not got injured, he'd have been the Proto-Gazza. Sadly, WC 1982 was his highpoint.