What if around 1930's, fascism rose to power in Russia? Here's what happens: in this alternate timeline, the Whites win the Russian Civil War. It has a constitutional monarchy with a possible parliamentary republic led by former White army generals either Wrangel or Denikin (not too sure, hope someone would actually tell me who would realistically be the leader). The great depression hits Russia in 1929 just as it did to the rest of the world since it's not a closed socialist country as the Soviet Union was. Because of this, fascism like in Germany becomes more prominent. What would happen if Russia becomes fascist? How would other ethnic minorities be affected? Who would be the leader? Would the traditional Russian tricolor flag change? If so, what kind? What would the country name for this alternate Russia be and would it be changed or I'd still be called the "Russian Republic"? What would happen to the Romanovs and how does WW2 play out? How long would this fascist Russia even survive?
1930's Fascist Russia
- Thread starter Shadow1080
- Start date
The only Fascist Russia I prefer was Zach's Napoleon Victory TL. Morchenko for the win.
You don't have to wait for a global depression to get a fascist Russia. A White victory in the civil means vicious repression of dissident elements of the society, and in 1918 Russia that means damn near the entire the country. The only way the disparate coalition that made up the Whites was going to hold down Russia is if a faction within wins out overall. That faction will not restore any form of representation or assemblies. It would rely on nationalism and myths about leftist sabotage to discredit the old opposition and build support for their new order after WWI.
That wouldn't take 10 years, hell the White consolidation would have to happen during the actual war if they were going to win. As far as I understand.
Also, while Fascism is inherently nationalistic that doesn't necessarily mean that the ethnic minorities of Russia would be any worse off than they had been under the Tsars. Fascism is very flexible, how Russian Fascism shapes up is entirely up to the priorities of the state and the personalities involved in shaping those priorities. Anything from forced assimilation, continued status quo, to death camps is open depending on how crazy/not crazy things get.
That wouldn't take 10 years, hell the White consolidation would have to happen during the actual war if they were going to win. As far as I understand.
Also, while Fascism is inherently nationalistic that doesn't necessarily mean that the ethnic minorities of Russia would be any worse off than they had been under the Tsars. Fascism is very flexible, how Russian Fascism shapes up is entirely up to the priorities of the state and the personalities involved in shaping those priorities. Anything from forced assimilation, continued status quo, to death camps is open depending on how crazy/not crazy things get.
OK, here's my take, mostly from my EDC notes.
1. In 1890 things start diverging.
2. The Great War (aka The Summer War) starts a month earlier and fizzles out in 1915 after the CPs[1] (well Germany) go defensive against France (and a less effective UK) and annihilate the Russians.
3. The war ends with Belgium and Luxembourg as German satellites. Russia falls apart[2] and loses Finland, Poland, the Baltics (and later Ukrania) as nominally independent German satellites.
4. There's a fair bit of post-war unrest in France and the UK[3]. Ireland becomes independent under a Redmondite federal system[4] and there is no Easter Rising, War of Independence and Civil War[5]; there is what might politely be called 'intervention' by Germany[6].
5. America dozes.
6. Russia manages a multi-sided Civil War (Imperialists, Royalists, Social Democrats, Revolutionaries et cetera) for a few years. Eventually a fairly weak central government emerges, accepts the treaties imposed by Germany (the fait accompli independence of chunks of what had been Greater Russia) and sets about governing. Some warlords survive[7].
7. So in 1925:
Russia is badly effected, and the Social Democrat government screws up and is coup'd by a grand coalition of extremists that unified around a programme they could all live with: a windy mix of nationalism, corporatism, anti-liberalism, anti-socialism, social conservatism and reactionary Orthodox Christianity with generous helpings of militarism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia and the Manifest Destiny of the Slavic Peoples to rule Eurasia.... After consolidating power they also began a rather brutal but undeniably effective programme of forced draught industrialisation and military expansion.
9. The rest of the world also developed numerous new political movements in response to the social, political and economic crises.
[1] Also including Sweden and Italy as well as The Usual Suspects
[2] Look at the unrest before the war, The Revolution Was Coming.
[3] Also very much historical but worsened by various factors.
[4] It's complicated
[5] Not actually relevant to Russia as yet.
[6]. "Us? Meddling? Never!" Any thoughts involving Atlantic naval bases, submarines and 'Great War II - This Time We'll Finish the Job' are rampant speculation and utterly unfounded.
[7] Including a certain Mad Baron. I have plans for him...
1. In 1890 things start diverging.
2. The Great War (aka The Summer War) starts a month earlier and fizzles out in 1915 after the CPs[1] (well Germany) go defensive against France (and a less effective UK) and annihilate the Russians.
3. The war ends with Belgium and Luxembourg as German satellites. Russia falls apart[2] and loses Finland, Poland, the Baltics (and later Ukrania) as nominally independent German satellites.
4. There's a fair bit of post-war unrest in France and the UK[3]. Ireland becomes independent under a Redmondite federal system[4] and there is no Easter Rising, War of Independence and Civil War[5]; there is what might politely be called 'intervention' by Germany[6].
5. America dozes.
6. Russia manages a multi-sided Civil War (Imperialists, Royalists, Social Democrats, Revolutionaries et cetera) for a few years. Eventually a fairly weak central government emerges, accepts the treaties imposed by Germany (the fait accompli independence of chunks of what had been Greater Russia) and sets about governing. Some warlords survive[7].
7. So in 1925:
- Germany is pretty quite, digesting the gains and governed by the Social Democrats with a much weakened Kaiser (W-II having died in the war)
- France is no longer chaotic, also governed by Social Democrats and rather pissed at the UK. Rapprochement with Germany is actually becoming a popular idea.
- Ireland is stable and playing Germany, the UK and the US off each other to pay for industrialisation. A youngish chap named Collins is making a bit of a name for himself as is an accountant named Ludgate...
- Britain calmer than it was but the army is still doing a lot of "aid to the civil power" much of which involves shooting people. Scotland is a troublespot and the Labour party is looking like a serious force.
- The US is still a secondary power and busy with trade and commerce. They're rather annoyed at the UK about certain financial matters pertaining to the war.
- Russia is no longer experiencing a civil war and looking like it might emerge as a Great Power again in a decade or two. Germany has noticed this and there is much déjà vu.
- Overall feeling about the war is split between "That was a near thing" and "One more Big Push and we could have finished them"
Russia is badly effected, and the Social Democrat government screws up and is coup'd by a grand coalition of extremists that unified around a programme they could all live with: a windy mix of nationalism, corporatism, anti-liberalism, anti-socialism, social conservatism and reactionary Orthodox Christianity with generous helpings of militarism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia and the Manifest Destiny of the Slavic Peoples to rule Eurasia.... After consolidating power they also began a rather brutal but undeniably effective programme of forced draught industrialisation and military expansion.
9. The rest of the world also developed numerous new political movements in response to the social, political and economic crises.
- There were fascist rumblings in France, quashed by the Socialist government who was increasingly cordial towards Germany.
- Italy and Spain both saw civil wars between Fascist and Communist groups; in the former the country was split into two and not re-unified for decades while Franco-German intervention in Spain eliminated the fascist threat there (and not coincidentally much of the more extreme left-wing also)
- In Ireland the Greenshirt movement's attempt at a popular revolution were stymied by a lack of support and the determination of the Collins government to maintain the peace. Many of the troublemakers were "encouraged" to go to Spain to fight for the Nationalists (though not all of them arrived...) or ended up Britain during the Troubles there.
- The USA effectively becomes deadlocked after the mid-term elections in 1934 and falls apart after the 1936 mess
- In Britain the unresolved post-war unrest reemerges, in Scotland 'Red Clyde' doesn't just refer to the politics. There is a low-level civil war for a few years ('The Troubles') which ends with the coup and the formation of the British Republic (the Ed7/Geo6 business).
[1] Also including Sweden and Italy as well as The Usual Suspects
[2] Look at the unrest before the war, The Revolution Was Coming.
[3] Also very much historical but worsened by various factors.
[4] It's complicated
[5] Not actually relevant to Russia as yet.
[6]. "Us? Meddling? Never!" Any thoughts involving Atlantic naval bases, submarines and 'Great War II - This Time We'll Finish the Job' are rampant speculation and utterly unfounded.
[7] Including a certain Mad Baron. I have plans for him...
A fascist Russia might have been on better terms with the reich, but it had better watch it...
To survive it would need someone like Stalin, for crash industrialization and building up a big military fast. It's not unreasonable to think a fascist system could produce such leadership but I don't know who specifically.
If Grand Duke Cyril and the Mladorossi come to power in the Great Depression, they could establish a Fascist Russia. I think Russia would remain a nominal monarchy after becoming fascist. The Romanovs have probably been executed with either Grand Duke Nikolai or Cyril becoming the next Tsars.
Fascism doesn't come about without a communist government. Not only was Mussolini inspired by Lenin, but Fascism as a historical trend (and separate from ur-fascism) was based on values not really present in the white camp.
If any radicalism is to occur (which I find somewhat unlikely considering the whites were for the most part just ultra Conservative), I imagine it would be of a pan monarchist, pan Slav or theocratic bend.
If any radicalism is to occur (which I find somewhat unlikely considering the whites were for the most part just ultra Conservative), I imagine it would be of a pan monarchist, pan Slav or theocratic bend.
Some kind of proto-fascism could be instituted when the Whites win and then evolve from there into some kinda Italian-esque model when Mussolini comes to power.
Wouldn't those all be key points of Russian fascism?
Not inherently.
So an example of what I mean is Palingenesis, a sort of ultra reactionary idea that rebirths the nation in the fashion of its past.
Germany could look to the Teutons, or in general Germanic civilization. Italy of course had Rome.
A white victory doesn't have that to go on, Tsarist Russia being the height (at that point) of the Russian people's power.
It sounds like a small thing, but its one of the reasons we can recognise markedly different aesthetics and philosophy in Japan and Spain from Germany and Italy, the former two having fascists in government but not being fully fascist in and of themselves. The former two were reactionary, the latter two were reactionary to revolutionary levels.
I agree of course that some fascist like ideology could come out of Russia, I just think its more likely to be a bog standard conservative dictatorship.
...what?
The Entente helping does not automatically mean entente ownership of Russian territory, or guarantee that Russia would not reclaim its. Assets. If anything, that environment is the kind of thing that would make fascism arise.
sengani
Banned
Russia after the White victory will be destroyed and much internal struggle. It can not have an independent policy. It will depend entirely on the Entente. This is only the dictatorship of generals to serve the Entente. Fascism is dictatorship but dictatorship happens in different regimes
Just in case this is a response to me, its worth using the quote button so I get an alert.
You haven't demonstrated that the Entente would have the ability to enforce anything on a white Russia, they had a hard enough time with Germany and they bordered Germany (by Sea + land), nevermind that Russia could diplomatically accept no such measures as they could rightfully claim the support as part of their military alliance.
Except they have all the time throughout history? I mean if anything, the existence of generals as a force that doesn't radicalise society is a relatively new thing. Julius and Augustus Caesar. Trotsky and War Communism. The Establishment of China. Frederick the Great's secular absolutism. I could literally go on and on.
Are you talking about some kinda "Warlord Russia" scenario? If not, then the Whites are capable of winning the RCW - simply have Denikin capture Moscow and Yudenich capture Petrograd which would lead to the collapse of the Bolshevik Party and the Red Army's disintegration.
I don't know what another Orthodox Christian fascism would look like, but it could take on a more Romanian-style form of religious fundamentalism. Romania's fascist movement led by Corneliu Codreanu could be a good example for a fascist Russia, its the only major fascist movement in an Orthodox country. The Romania movement had the typical anti-semitism and blood and soil nationalism of fascism, but religion played such a prominent role compared to non-Romanian fascisms that its been compared to an Orthodox Christian taliban.
Fascism seems to be a largely catholic phenomenon, with major exceptions like the Nazis' protestant power base and Codreanu in Romania.
Fascism seems to be a largely catholic phenomenon, with major exceptions like the Nazis' protestant power base and Codreanu in Romania.
How long would this fascism go? And how would other ethnic minorities be treated?
What about Kolchak? What would happen to him who declared himself as a "supreme ruler"?
The day-to-day realities of ruling an empire as large and diverse as Russia probably requires the Russian state to come to some kind of accommodation with its Buddhist and Muslim minorities. I don't see much reason to go after Kazakhs and Tatars.
Most political energy would probably be directed toward persecuting Jews, reclaiming Russian lands in Kresy and the Caucasus, and stamping out the national consciousness of slavic minorities.
It makes sense for Russia to "unify" the orthodox slavs by treating Belarusian and Ukrainian of Russian and promote the view that they are parts of a larger Russian nation. Removing the Soviet's interwar policies that attempted to mollify national aspirations would drastically change the history of Ukrainian nationalism, Belarusian national consciousness, and Polish foreign policy. OTL, the '20s were something of a golden decade for Ukrainian culture and national consciousness in the USSR.