1923: Hitler dies for the Fatherland in Münich

[Euroman1981]

What if let put in simply that during the shotout at the Münich beerhall putch in 1923, that Hitler is shot in the head and dies shortly afterwards.

Would the Nazis still rise? Or would Germany go communist at 1933 election?

 

[Anglocalvinist67]

What if let put in simply that during the shotout at the Münich beerhall putch in 1923, that Hitler is shot in the head and dies shortly afterwards.

Would the Nazis still rise? Or would Germany go communist at 1933 election?

I think the Republic is doomed on any case.

I see a more socialist (but still racist) NSDAP under leadership of the Strasser brothers. In that case, I also see a more powerful DNVP that has integrated the more capitalistic/traditionalist Nazi party supporters. The big industrialists and Junker families would be all in for such a party, as would the Reichwehr leadership. So the end result is a quasi fascist dictatorship that nonetheless would not be be as fanactic and totalitarian as the Hitler regime.

Under those circumstances I could see the NSDAP and KPD forming an alliance of convenience against the new regime, including using violent resistance. I also see such resistance as being unsuccessful because the DNVP regime would have firm control of the instruments of state power.

 

[Alex1guy]

Probably a military/aristocratic junta eventually taking power

 

[King Nazar]

Perhaps a military dictatorship under Kurt von Schleicher after Hindenburg dies.

Rearmament would still happen but maybe Germany is a lot more cautious in foreign policy and avoids starting a general European war.

 

[Euroman1981]

Would a Hitler who died by 1923 become the Karl Marx of the extreme right?

 

[Admiral Fischer]

Would a Hitler who died by 1923 become the Karl Marx of the extreme right?

That'd be Mussolini.

 

[King Nazar]

Would a Hitler who died by 1923 become the Karl Marx of the extreme right?

Unlikely since he hasn't even written his book yet, nor is he really known outside of Bavaria.

As far as a far right Karl Marx is concerned, I think Oswald Spengler would fit the role of a pseudoscientific historical analyst/theorist for the German far right.

 

[Euroman1981]

Does 1940-1945 come and go without a war then?

 

[King Nazar]

It's possible that war in Europe will be avoided. But tensions will still be high as Germany will be rearming and will opportunistically undermine the Versailles arrangement. I don't think a more conventional military dictatorship would take the kind of risks that Hitler took though.

 

[Euroman1981]

Which kind of relation would a millitarist non-Nazi Germany have with a Republican Charles Lindberg administration? If he defeated FDR circa 1933.

 

[King Nazar]

Which kind of relation would a millitarist non-Nazi Germany have with a Republican Charles Lindberg administration? If he defeated FDR circa 1933.

Charles Lindbergh would be constitutionally ineligible to be President in 1933 considering he would only be 31 years old.

Though he could be a potential candidate for the GOP in 1940 in a world without the Nazis.

 

[Euroman1981]

Charles Lindbergh would be constitutionally ineligible to be President in 1933 considering he would only be 31 years old.

Though he could be a potential candidate for the GOP in 1940 in a world without the Nazis.

So lets say he wins in 1940. What then?

 

[NotBigBrother]

Read "Weber's Germany:The Veterinarian Totalitarian".

 

[Enigmajones]

Personally don't think that the Nazis would have achieved power without Hitler. At least not in the same time table as OTL.

 

[King Nazar]

So lets say he wins in 1940. What then?

I imagine Lindbergh would fit in well with the isolationist wing of the Republican party and people like Robert Taft.

His foreign policy would be to avoid getting into any kind of war in Europe. However, I don't know if that isolationism would extend to the pacific where presumably Japan would still be in a war in China.

 

[Euroman1981]

I imagine Lindbergh would fit in well with the isolationist wing of the Republican party and people like Robert Taft.

His foreign policy would be to avoid getting into any kind of war in Europe. However, I don't know if that isolationism would extend to the pacific where presumably Japan would still be in a war in China.

An interesting scenario. With no mass murder of jews, homosexuals and other minorities Hitler didn't like in Western and Easterneuropa. What is going on in the USSR?? We know that Stalin and parts of the Sovjet regime were anti-semitists. Would Stalin go after the Sovjet jews in this world?

 

[King Nazar]

An interesting scenario. With no mass murder of jews, homosexuals and other minorities Hitler didn't like in Western and Easterneuropa. What is going on in the USSR?? We know that Stalin and parts of the Sovjet regime were anti-semitists. Would Stalin go after the Sovjet jews in this world?

You mean the whole Doctor's plot situation? I don't know since it all depends on internal Soviet politics which, needless to say, will be very different in a world without WWII.

Heck, maybe without WWII to rally the population, Stalin himself would be deposed.

 

[Euroman1981]

You mean the whole Doctor's plot situation? I don't know since it all depends on internal Soviet politics which, needless to say, will be very different in a world without WWII.

Heck, maybe without WWII to rally the population, Stalin himself would be deposed.

I had to google the doctors plot, but an earlier doctors plot maybe?

 

[King Nazar]

I had to google the doctors plot, but an earlier doctors plot maybe?

The whole thing may have just been a pretext for Stalin to purge the party. It's possible, depending on how internal Soviet politics plays out in this ATL.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

I think without Hitler, the Nazis don't rise.

Although the Nazis were far more than "Hitler and his henchmen" most (if not all?) of the key figures in the initial rise of the NSDAP to power were attracted to the party by Hitler's oratory. Absent Hitler, there's every chance the Nazis remain a Bavarian fringe Party and attach themselves to whatever right-wing Autocratic regime rises ATL.

Personally, with the anti-socialism (it went far deeper than 'simple' anti-communism) rife within the Heer, for me there is no real chance of a Communist or even heavily Socialist German government. Once the Heer supported (backed?) right-wing autocratic government takes power, with the geopolitical drivers of a German government of the era (reclamation of 'Prussian Poland', the Danzig Question, possibility of Anschluss with Austria and a general want to 'deal' with Soviet Russia) I believe there will be a War of some kind or another eventually. Whether it's a "notzi" War in The East or WWII*, I'm not sure. The absence of the various Nazi idiots from high Government positions will mean there is a chance that many failures of the OTL German war effort won't be repeated, possibly even a better foreign policy as well. The Holocaust as we know it will almost certainly be butterflied away (life for the Jews of Eastern Europe won't magically become roses and fluffy bunny rabbits, but Konzentrationslager will probably not be a thing (for Jews at least - for Soviet Russians, maybe) and other aberrations such as Aktion T4 will not occur) but War will still be horrible by any normal moral mores.