I'm almost finished reading 1901 by Robert Conroy. For those of you who don't know, the book involves the German invasion of Long Island in 1901 in an effort by the Kaiser to force the US to give Puerto Rico and a few other small islands won in the Spanish-American war to Germany. I was thinking about the premise, and wondered what the timeline of the 20th Century would be like with a Germany weakened by war in the early 1900's. Probably no WWI, and therefore, no embittered Adolph Hitler to start WWII. Does anyone who's read the book have any idea about what an alternate 20th Century would be like? Would Russia still fall to the Communists with no WWI? Would that mean Stalin would try to take Europe like Hitler did? Tell me what you think?
1901
- Thread starter Underboss_3
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Chris Oakley
Banned
There still might have been two world wars--just fought against different enemies.I can definitely see Stalin trying to take over all of Europe the way Hitler did in OTL.
This was one of the first few AH books I bought, but it didn't seem to get wide release... apparently, with the surge in AH interest, it has been rereleased (as a paperback?). I loved the story, and it apparently has a basis in fact, as there was a short war scare after the SAW. The end of the book seems to imply that a sort-of 3rd Reich is going to arise under that business man who took over the government (he says that he feels inclined to blame the Jews for Germany's losses). The US is going to be taking a leading role in the world a lot earlier... they'll have a bigger standing army and navy, and are tying themselves close to Britain (who played a crucial role in helping the US). No isolationism here. WIth Germany's imperial ambitions sidetracked, but no crippling WW1 war losses inflicted, it's hard to see that anything like the Nazis will arise and come to dominate the country so much...
David S Poepoe
Banned
I read this book when it first came out and have since then considered it a fairly lukewarm AH novel. Considering what I've read, in regards to relations between the Great Powers before 1914, I think one would most likely see a Great War breakout before 1910 - provided theres no Russo-Japanese War.
Somethings I consider:
1. The adoption of the Dreadnought type battleship about 3-4 years earlier.
2. The French (and Russians) will use the oppurtunity of Germany's defeat by the United States to make territorial demands upon Germany. The new government in Berlin will be force to agree to any terms - and I suspect the French won't hesitate to humiliate them.
3. The French and Russians will become the Continental Powers to deal with. Its likely that the German-Austro-Hungarian Alliance will continue. If not Austro-Hungary will be dismantled by the Russians at the request of the Serbs.
4. With Germany removed as a power do the French really continue to seek after the British as allies. With Germany defeated the Royal Navy is faced with the combined Franco-Russian navies in the eventuality of war.
The post-1901 balance of power has been switched back to that of pre-1812 Europe, with Britain likely to again be isolated. What is possible to consider, considering that Germany may remain isolated for a few years, would be a Anglo-American-Austro-Hungarian alliance.
Somethings I consider:
1. The adoption of the Dreadnought type battleship about 3-4 years earlier.
2. The French (and Russians) will use the oppurtunity of Germany's defeat by the United States to make territorial demands upon Germany. The new government in Berlin will be force to agree to any terms - and I suspect the French won't hesitate to humiliate them.
3. The French and Russians will become the Continental Powers to deal with. Its likely that the German-Austro-Hungarian Alliance will continue. If not Austro-Hungary will be dismantled by the Russians at the request of the Serbs.
4. With Germany removed as a power do the French really continue to seek after the British as allies. With Germany defeated the Royal Navy is faced with the combined Franco-Russian navies in the eventuality of war.
The post-1901 balance of power has been switched back to that of pre-1812 Europe, with Britain likely to again be isolated. What is possible to consider, considering that Germany may remain isolated for a few years, would be a Anglo-American-Austro-Hungarian alliance.
1901, the Maximilian War, and the Franco-Prussian War
Consider the precedent of Napoleon III's attack on Mexico. The French were forced to back down by the Americans. Several years later they were still so self confident that they attacked Germany and got their head handed to them in several battles.
Germany would have lost most of their navy in the 1901 war. They would have lost a trivial part of their army. It would not weaken them militarily, except psychologically perhaps. If they had taken the money they spent on their navy after 1901 and spent it on their army, the war in 1914 would have been even more lopsided. They spent quite a bit on their navy in those 13 years, so much that they had to borrow huge sums of money from the British to pay for it.
I read the book. It starts out not very well written, but gets better. It's got a sort of Romance novel feel to it in places.
Consider the precedent of Napoleon III's attack on Mexico. The French were forced to back down by the Americans. Several years later they were still so self confident that they attacked Germany and got their head handed to them in several battles.
Germany would have lost most of their navy in the 1901 war. They would have lost a trivial part of their army. It would not weaken them militarily, except psychologically perhaps. If they had taken the money they spent on their navy after 1901 and spent it on their army, the war in 1914 would have been even more lopsided. They spent quite a bit on their navy in those 13 years, so much that they had to borrow huge sums of money from the British to pay for it.
I read the book. It starts out not very well written, but gets better. It's got a sort of Romance novel feel to it in places.
David Howery said:
I've never read the book. How does Britain help the USA? and how does America beat Germany?
Britain supplies America with loads of modern rifles and ammo. She also allows US warships a safe haven in Canadian waters. Interestingly, Britain is affected by the war; due to increased tensions, the Brits cease all activities in the Boer war and bring all the troops home to Britain.
SPOILER:
essentially, America wins by first smashing Germany's navy in a couple of epic battles, so their troops ashore can't be supplied. The Germans then have to risk all in one major attack, which fails. Out of supply, they are forced to surrender. Of course, before this happens, the Germans kick butt and take names for most of the book....
SPOILER:
essentially, America wins by first smashing Germany's navy in a couple of epic battles, so their troops ashore can't be supplied. The Germans then have to risk all in one major attack, which fails. Out of supply, they are forced to surrender. Of course, before this happens, the Germans kick butt and take names for most of the book....
My thoughts on consequences (some spoilers)
Naval--the Germans have lost lost of their fleet, but this will have minimal long term material results, it's probably going to be obsolete soon enough. The new leadership seems likely to focus on the land side of things--which will remove Britain's greatest concern with Germany.
The navy is discredited, with much of its experianced crews at the bottom of the Atlantic, and its morale must likely broken
The USA has more practical experinace with modern naval warfarew than anyone else does--and a Congress willing to vote for a strong defence. With the lessons of the battles off New York, I'd expect the first dreadnought type ships to be ordered within a year,,and without the displacement limits that a stingy Congress put on the USA in OTL, allowing for a better vessel.
Great Britian probably follows shortly, and the dreadnoughts start to show up worldwide.
Germany builds a few--mainly to show she's still a great power--but not the massive building program of OTL.
Army
The US army and the German army will be looking for ways to deal with machine guns in fixed emplacements. The US suffered worse in its assault on the German fortifications, and will be looking for a way to deal with that. In addition, the US army is now open to innovations--I expect tanks before too long.
Nothing makes an army look at itself like a defeat--but will the German army see it that way, or as a disaster created by the navy? This will be critical in seeing what happens next. In the book, the soldiers were blaming the navy for a lot of what happened.
Look for big land based artillery to become popular, since it was used to good effect around New York.
Marines:
The US Marines got some practical experinace in amphibious assaults. Theuy worked, but I'd expect them to work on refineing the tactics. The World War II landing craft is not technically advanced, it could be built in 1912 if someone sees a need, and designs it.
Politics:
I'd expect that Germany is paying reparations to the USA for the destruction of Brooklyn, or (more likely)had to give up the Pacific islands and Tsingtao. The US could take them easily, so the new governemnt would probably trade them away.
This makes Japan uneasy--the US is coming in force to the Pacific--bases at Cavite, and new islands to replace the newly independent Phillipines. I'd bet they will be fortified. Japan is also seeing that Britian no longer needs Japan to balance the High Seas Fleet-and is on very good terms with the USA. If I were Japanese, I'd be getting worried.
Britain no longer has to worry about Europe for a few years, and the Anglo-American alliance will make anyine thinking of starting trouble think. After all, the USA beat the invincible German Army--what else can it do? No one will leave the US out of its plans in the future--and when they add up the production capacity of the US, they will get worried.
Just a few rough thoughs
Naval--the Germans have lost lost of their fleet, but this will have minimal long term material results, it's probably going to be obsolete soon enough. The new leadership seems likely to focus on the land side of things--which will remove Britain's greatest concern with Germany.
The navy is discredited, with much of its experianced crews at the bottom of the Atlantic, and its morale must likely broken
The USA has more practical experinace with modern naval warfarew than anyone else does--and a Congress willing to vote for a strong defence. With the lessons of the battles off New York, I'd expect the first dreadnought type ships to be ordered within a year,,and without the displacement limits that a stingy Congress put on the USA in OTL, allowing for a better vessel.
Great Britian probably follows shortly, and the dreadnoughts start to show up worldwide.
Germany builds a few--mainly to show she's still a great power--but not the massive building program of OTL.
Army
The US army and the German army will be looking for ways to deal with machine guns in fixed emplacements. The US suffered worse in its assault on the German fortifications, and will be looking for a way to deal with that. In addition, the US army is now open to innovations--I expect tanks before too long.
Nothing makes an army look at itself like a defeat--but will the German army see it that way, or as a disaster created by the navy? This will be critical in seeing what happens next. In the book, the soldiers were blaming the navy for a lot of what happened.
Look for big land based artillery to become popular, since it was used to good effect around New York.
Marines:
The US Marines got some practical experinace in amphibious assaults. Theuy worked, but I'd expect them to work on refineing the tactics. The World War II landing craft is not technically advanced, it could be built in 1912 if someone sees a need, and designs it.
Politics:
I'd expect that Germany is paying reparations to the USA for the destruction of Brooklyn, or (more likely)had to give up the Pacific islands and Tsingtao. The US could take them easily, so the new governemnt would probably trade them away.
This makes Japan uneasy--the US is coming in force to the Pacific--bases at Cavite, and new islands to replace the newly independent Phillipines. I'd bet they will be fortified. Japan is also seeing that Britian no longer needs Japan to balance the High Seas Fleet-and is on very good terms with the USA. If I were Japanese, I'd be getting worried.
Britain no longer has to worry about Europe for a few years, and the Anglo-American alliance will make anyine thinking of starting trouble think. After all, the USA beat the invincible German Army--what else can it do? No one will leave the US out of its plans in the future--and when they add up the production capacity of the US, they will get worried.
Just a few rough thoughs
Grey Wolf
Donor
Justin Green said:
Did Guam ever have a king ? I really don't know much about it other than that it was ceded by Spain to the USA
Samoa probably goes like Hawaii, with the royals relegated to just a richer or landowner family that everyone forgets about. Sadly, no renewed Kingdom of Samoa after colonialism like in OTL
Grey Wolf
David S Poepoe
Banned
Grey Wolf said:
If Guan did have a King, in the western sense of the word, it was entirely pre-Spanish. There was no real Kingdom of Samoa since it was never unified under one paramount chief, like Hawaii under Kamehameha. Both the American and German, later Australian/New Zealand, occupations of Samoa have scrubbed the ideas of establishing a kingdom in Samoa. However, the same can not be said, to a degree, in Hawaii. One of the unfortunate things about Samoa is that it really has nothing to offer and its way out of the way in the South Pacific.
Grey Wolf
Donor
David S Poepoe said:
Hmm, I was under the impression that Samoa had a king, see :-
http://pub57.ezboard.com/fsargonsstrongholdfrm30.showMessage?topicID=2.topic&index=1
Of course, this is WESTERN Samoa because the other part is still, I assume, American ?
Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf
Donor
'1901' is an interesting book, though I think the author has a somewhat naiive view of international politics and the power of the Kaiser - for example, look at Bjorkoe, that proves that if the Kaiser unilaterally wants to do something unwise his advisors etc will talk him out of it. Of course, if they HAD in the book then there would have been no book, lol 
I am continually brought to wonder what the states of things were in 1901 - armoured cars, airships etc ? The book implies that the latter are already in use in some armies of the world, and that the US has airships - are these inflatable or frame-worked ?
But my greatest wonder is where on Earth all the cruisers come from ! I think that the author must be counting sloops (e.g Geier etc) as light cruisers for the Germans, though what he is using for the Americans' I don't know. This is especially so since for the big naval battle the author has to admit that 3 of what he previously called battleships were actually cruisers equivalent to capital ships. This is acceptable, just see the Japanese against the Russians 1904-05 and the Asama etc, but it does reduce the number of cruisers that can be counted in their own right.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
I am continually brought to wonder what the states of things were in 1901 - armoured cars, airships etc ? The book implies that the latter are already in use in some armies of the world, and that the US has airships - are these inflatable or frame-worked ?
But my greatest wonder is where on Earth all the cruisers come from ! I think that the author must be counting sloops (e.g Geier etc) as light cruisers for the Germans, though what he is using for the Americans' I don't know. This is especially so since for the big naval battle the author has to admit that 3 of what he previously called battleships were actually cruisers equivalent to capital ships. This is acceptable, just see the Japanese against the Russians 1904-05 and the Asama etc, but it does reduce the number of cruisers that can be counted in their own right.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
I think the British should of enterd the war when Germany started to lose the major land battles. A British blockade of Germany coupled with the German navy being lost against the USN would of really finished Germany off. And then Britain could claim her African territories!!
Does the book mention what happens to Germanies colonies?
Does the book mention what happens to Germanies colonies?
1901 sounds like a real interesting book, although regrettably I have never encountered it myself at all. The plot's baseline IMHO seems somewhat reflective of reality in terms of how Germany was OTL involved in the 1906 (?) and 1911 Moroccan crises with France, where IIRC the Kaiser was willing to go to war with the French over Morocco's territorial sovereignty.
Is there any description at all of what role the Buffalo soldiers play in the defeat of Imperial Germany ? Do the Americans in this ATL fare better than they did against the Spaniards OTL ?
Is there any description at all of what role the Buffalo soldiers play in the defeat of Imperial Germany ? Do the Americans in this ATL fare better than they did against the Spaniards OTL ?
yes, the buffalo soldiers are a prominent part of the US's counterattack, being one of the few experienced troops in the US army. They end up in a scratch brigade under command of the book's US hero, Mahan.
I think the SAW went the same as in OTL. Against Germany, we seriously get our butts kicked at first, until Roosevelt takes over and prepares for a long term war. The Germans are seriously hampered by lack of supplies and prove unable to advance much past NYC...
I think the SAW went the same as in OTL. Against Germany, we seriously get our butts kicked at first, until Roosevelt takes over and prepares for a long term war. The Germans are seriously hampered by lack of supplies and prove unable to advance much past NYC...
i'm nearing the ned of the book. I hope the author wrtes a sequel based on the first world war. Maybe an Anglo-American alliance facing off against Germany?
Grey Wolf
Donor
Pax Britannia said:
Well, why do you think there will be anything analogous to the First World War ?
At the end of the book the following are different from OTL :-
1. Independent Philippines within a year under US protection
2. Independent Transvaal and Orange Free State
3. No Anglo-German naval race (and no Tirpitz, he's dead)
4. No Kaiser Wilhelm II
5. A reformed German democratic system
6. A hinted-at Becker-Holstein meritocracy overlaying the Reichstag with Wilhelm III a weaker sovereign
7. Closer Anglo-American ties
8. A larger US standing army
9. A blooded and larger US navy
10. Possibly an earlier boost to submarines
IMHO, TR will probably run for a third time reckoning he has earnt it, Colombia may well grant the US canal rights reckoning they are too strong to resist (so no independent Panama)
German colonial politics are now out of favour so neither of the Morocco crises is on the cards, even had Wilhelm III had the power of his father
Lessons will be learnt by both Russia and Japan, and if the Russo-Japanese War occurs it will be very different from OTL
Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf