1453, Ottomans decide that the Greek Patriarchate stays abolished!

Valdemar II

Banned
That's a much bigger list of losses to Austria than OTL 1720; Wallachia and Serbia were both retained by Ottomans as well as Bosnia.

Serbia and west Walachia was in Austrian hands until the 1730ties, where it was reconquered by the Ottomans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Passarowitz

The treaty reflected the military situation. The Ottoman Empire lost the Banat of Temeswar, northern Serbia (including Belgrade), northern Bosnia and Lesser Walachia (Oltenia) to Austria

(I also have it from other sources, but they doesn't exist in electronic form)
 
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Serbia and west Walachia was in Austrian hands until the 1730ties, where it was reconquered by the Ottomans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Passarowitz

The treaty reflected the military situation. The Ottoman Empire lost the Banat of Temeswar, northern Serbia (including Belgrade), northern Bosnia and Lesser Walachia (Oltenia) to Austria

(I also have it from other sources, both they doesn't exist in electronic form)

Ah, I didn't know about that.

Of course, given that they didn't hold Walachia and Serbia for very long in OTL, over-extending themselves further by adding Bosnia to the mix is likely to leave them in an even worse position when the Ottomans come seeking revenge, especially if there is a larger Muslim population in the Balkans.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Ah, I didn't know about that.

Of course, given that they didn't hold Walachia and Serbia for very long in OTL, over-extending themselves further by adding Bosnia to the mix is likely to leave them in an even worse position when the Ottomans come seeking revenge, especially if there is a larger Muslim population in the Balkans.

I disagree the only reason Austria didn't reconquer the area was because of the War of Austrian Succesion and the Seven years War, if the entire of Austrian focus hadn't been moved to Centraleurope thanks to the loss of Silesia, these areas would have wended up Austrian again, and it isn't unlikely that Austria would have conquered even more of the Balkan in OTL without these problems.
 
I disagree the only reason Austria didn't reconquer the area was because of the War of Austrian Succesion and the Seven years War, if the entire of Austrian focus hadn't been moved to Centraleurope thanks to the loss of Silesia, these areas would have wended up Austrian again, and it isn't unlikely that Austria would have conquered even more of the Balkan in OTL without these problems.

Well, they did manage to lose Oltentia and North Serbia in 1739 OTL despite being allied with Russia and not facing hostilities with Prussia at the time, so I don't think I can agree that they could take the area at will. There's also the balance of power to be considered; if Austria looks to be gaining too much territory at Ottoman expense their other enemies might well intervene.
 
Serbia and west Walachia was in Austrian hands until the 1730ties, where it was reconquered by the Ottomans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Passarowitz

The treaty reflected the military situation. The Ottoman Empire lost the Banat of Temeswar, northern Serbia (including Belgrade), northern Bosnia and Lesser Walachia (Oltenia) to Austria

(I also have it from other sources, but they doesn't exist in electronic form)

That's true - I forgot about that. It's the areas marked 'S' and 'LV' on this map

They were lost for about 20 years. It was actually a bit more of N. Bosnia than this map reflects.

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/eceurope/hun16991739.gif
 
It think the big point that is being missed is that not re-instating the Patriarcahte would change the courseo of Religious development not only in the OE but in the the religious evolution of Eastern Europe in general and by extension Catholic Western Europe. ( How for instance is this likely to affect the course of religious evolution in the PLC)

History abhors a vacuum. Someone would definitely step into the vacuum left among the Eastern Orthodox. Even if only informally. Contacts between the Eastern and Western branches would increase significantly. Its not like borders were sealed in this time period. Without religious leadership with in the Empire the local priests will turn to their local Bishops instead who at the very least will be able to maintain at least informal contacts at least with their western counterparts in Italy, Austria, Hungary, Poland and the Danubian and Russian principalities.

While Russia is not a threat at this point. The Pope is still a formidable figure at this time and there are countries that could make life difficult and could now have added impetus to do so. I am not saying they would do any better, but I don't think we can automatically assume that greater conversion to Islam would result. If anything you could just as easily have a polarizationbetween the Christians of the Balkans and The Porte without a Patriarche and emmissaries fromthe west will certainly make greater inroads insome parts of the Balkans.

I also doubt that the Greeks would be that easy to convert, Orthodoxy is in some ways central to their identity. Certainly one of the Greek Bishops would assume an unofficial leadership role even if not sanctioned by the Ottoman authorities. It would be dangerous for Ottoman authorities to try and suppress even an unofficial Orthodox leadership. It would antagonize the populace and revolt would become commonplace especially among the Greeks at the very least.

My own thoughts would be that this makes eventual unification between Eastern and Western Catholics more likely and changes significantly the Reformation. Indeed it may not even occur or it will occur in an entirely different context. Even if this didn't occur I think you would likely se a greater penetration of Catholicism in Bosnia and Serbia
 
History abhors a vacuum. Someone would definitely step into the vacuum left among the Eastern Orthodox. Even if only informally. Contacts between the Eastern and Western branches would increase significantly. Its not like borders were sealed in this time period. Without religious leadership with in the Empire the local priests will turn to their local Bishops instead who at the very least will be able to maintain at least informal contacts at least with their western counterparts in Italy, Austria, Hungary, Poland and the Danubian and Russian principalities.

While Russia is not a threat at this point. The Pope is still a formidable figure at this time and there are countries that could make life difficult and could now have added impetus to do so. I am not saying they would do any better, but I don't think we can automatically assume that greater conversion to Islam would result. If anything you could just as easily have a polarizationbetween the Christians of the Balkans and The Porte without a Patriarche and emmissaries fromthe west will certainly make greater inroads insome parts of the Balkans.

I also doubt that the Greeks would be that easy to convert, Orthodoxy is in some ways central to their identity. Certainly one of the Greek Bishops would assume an unofficial leadership role even if not sanctioned by the Ottoman authorities. It would be dangerous for Ottoman authorities to try and suppress even an unofficial Orthodox leadership. It would antagonize the populace and revolt would become commonplace especially among the Greeks at the very least.

My own thoughts would be that this makes eventual unification between Eastern and Western Catholics more likely and changes significantly the Reformation. Indeed it may not even occur or it will occur in an entirely different context. Even if this didn't occur I think you would likely se a greater penetration of Catholicism in Bosnia and Serbia

That is a really big what-if but plausible.
however, I try to look at the past to see if history might repeat itself.

The whole Roman East, Africa & Asia Minor were once christian. Yet, scarcely 400 years after the conquest they were so muslim not even the crusade could change that.

There were churches too throughout this area. The Syriac, the Coptic, etc, but that didn't stop their adherents from converting no? Also at this point, the muslim world had enormous contact with the west. Yet I don't think that attempts by the patriarchs at Constantinople manage to change the religious situation of this are, nor the pope in Rome.

I think that, left without the patriarch in Constantinople, the balkan christian would probably form their own churches like the Monophysite in egypt, etc, but that would not really help the tide of turkification of the balkans...

There again there is the religious strife among branches of christianity...then as well as now. To say that the pope would convert the balkans is a bit far-fetching, I think. after all, Grand Duke Notaras said he would prefer the turban than the tiara...and there is a big hostility between orthodoxy & catholicism, until now...
 
That is a really big what-if but plausible.
however, I try to look at the past to see if history might repeat itself.

The whole Roman East, Africa & Asia Minor were once christian. Yet, scarcely 400 years after the conquest they were so muslim not even the crusade could change that.

There were churches too throughout this area. The Syriac, the Coptic, etc, but that didn't stop their adherents from converting no? Also at this point, the muslim world had enormous contact with the west. Yet I don't think that attempts by the patriarchs at Constantinople manage to change the religious situation of this are, nor the pope in Rome.

I think that, left without the patriarch in Constantinople, the balkan christian would probably form their own churches like the Monophysite in egypt, etc, but that would not really help the tide of turkification of the balkans...

There again there is the religious strife among branches of christianity...then as well as now. To say that the pope would convert the balkans is a bit far-fetching, I think. after all, Grand Duke Notaras said he would prefer the turban than the tiara...and there is a big hostility between orthodoxy & catholicism, until now...

He said that because the Muslims were largely tolerant of Orthodox Christians,but if the Muslims try to convert them,i doubt that it would still be the case,there are far larger differences between Islam and Orthodoxy,than between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
 
He said that because the Muslims were largely tolerant of Orthodox Christians,but if the Muslims try to convert them,i doubt that it would still be the case,there are far larger differences between Islam and Orthodoxy,than between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

Even if the Ottomans decided not to re-establish Greek Patriarchate, I doubt we would see Ottomans trying convert the Christians forcefully convert the Christians into Muslim faith. Besides even with the Patriarchate be let abolished, that doesn't mean an inevitable Catholicization of Orthodox Christians in any rate. Ottoman muslims had the advantage of better access to the Greek Christians than Rome, and with the Greek Patriarchate stays abolished it'd be harder for Rome to get in-friendly touch with the Greek Christians than to get-in-hostile touch with the Greek Patriarchate, before the abolishment and re-establishment, like it was the case IOTL. Albeit, if the Ottomans would going to go with something very stupid way to Islamize the Greek populations, that could be a start of smooth process of Latinization of the Greeks, but that would be one of the most unlikely case to happen.

Without any interference such as a foolish Islamization attempt like I've mentioned above or anything unpredictable to stop it, the average rate of Islamization in the Ottoman Balkans will definitely be much higher in TTL than IOTL. :)
 
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That requires catching them. Lots of Catholic priests were able to operate covertly in Elizabethan England--the Ottoman Empire is MUCH larger.

true, but england stays protestant no?
what I'm saying is that it stays in the fate the sovereign decrees it to be.
the ottomans could simply try to wipe out the catholics in the realm, instead of the orthodox -and I don't think the orthodox would mind... :D
besides, seeing how the spaniards treat the andalusian muslims, he has more reason to do so :D

I'm confused, should I say Islamization or Turkification of the Balkans? :confused:
 
true, but england stays protestant no?
what I'm saying is that it stays in the fate the sovereign decrees it to be.
the ottomans could simply try to wipe out the catholics in the realm, instead of the orthodox -and I don't think the orthodox would mind... :D
besides, seeing how the spaniards treat the andalusian muslims, he has more reason to do so :D

I'm confused, should I say Islamization or Turkification of the Balkans? :confused:

My point was that regardless of what the sovereign wants, if they don't have the means of doing so, it won't get done. Elizabeth could try to catch and kill all the priests she wanted, but this didn't mean it would get done.

The Ottomans can persecute Catholics and hunt for foreign Catholic priests, but they can't hand-wave them out of existence by royal decree. The police-state mechanisms to do that simply did not exist at the time.

Hmmm...this sounds like an interesting plot for an AH spy novel. A group of Catholic priests (probably Greek or Cypriot, to avoid attracting attention) infiltrate an Ottoman Empire where the Patriarchate has been abolished, more and more Christians are converting to Islam, and Catholics are being oppressed due to fears of foreign infiltration.

You like?
 
Catholics weren't persecuted in OTL where they were nakedly pro-French - I don't really see that changing. If anything happens, it would be you would see more Uniate churches that are internally autonomous like the Maronites.

My point was that regardless of what the sovereign wants, if they don't have the means of doing so, it won't get done. Elizabeth could try to catch and kill all the priests she wanted, but this didn't mean it would get done.

The Ottomans can persecute Catholics and hunt for foreign Catholic priests, but they can't hand-wave them out of existence by royal decree. The police-state mechanisms to do that simply did not exist at the time.

Hmmm...this sounds like an interesting plot for an AH spy novel. A group of Catholic priests (probably Greek or Cypriot, to avoid attracting attention) infiltrate an Ottoman Empire where the Patriarchate has been abolished, more and more Christians are converting to Islam, and Catholics are being oppressed due to fears of foreign infiltration.

You like?
 
Catholics weren't persecuted in OTL where they were nakedly pro-French - I don't really see that changing. If anything happens, it would be you would see more Uniate churches that are internally autonomous like the Maronites.

The Ottomans are in a much stronger position this time--persecuting Catholics for real or perceived disloyalty won't bring the wrath of the Powers on them.

Hmm...if the Patriarchate stays abolished, huge numbers of Orthodox convert to Islam, and the Catholics start poaching the rest, might the Ottomans revive the Patriarchate to stop Catholic inroads?

Instead of Mehmed II reviving the Patriarchate, it's done by Suleiman, Selim, or a later Sultan.

Same results, but a much larger Muslim population in the Balkans and Greece and all that this entails.
 
It doesn't seem likely to me that a large number of people within Ottoman borders are likely to convert to Catholicism - you would have to ask what their motivation for doing so would be. I doubt it would be in any number sufficient to move the Ottomans to adjusting their policy.

The Ottomans are in a much stronger position this time--persecuting Catholics for real or perceived disloyalty won't bring the wrath of the Powers on them.

Hmm...if the Patriarchate stays abolished, huge numbers of Orthodox convert to Islam, and the Catholics start poaching the rest, might the Ottomans revive the Patriarchate to stop Catholic inroads?

Instead of Mehmed II reviving the Patriarchate, it's done by Suleiman, Selim, or a later Sultan.

Same results, but a much larger Muslim population in the Balkans and Greece and all that this entails.
 

Keenir

Banned
Albeit, if the Ottomans would going to go with something very stupid way to Islamize the Greek populations, that could be a start of smooth process of Latinization of the Greeks, but that would be one of the most unlikely case to happen.

maybe the Messiah (Shabbatai Levi?) gets more Greek Orthodox followers.
 
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