What if Europe had not secularized after WWII/the 1960s (not really sure of the timing)?
How might this happen, and what might be some effects?
How might this happen, and what might be some effects?
What if Europe had not secularized after WWII/the 1960s (not really sure of the timing)?
How might this happen, and what might be some effects?
Basically Europe becomes more like America. Happened gradually between 1900-Present Day with huge sways towards secularism after the wars. I feel if you avoid the World Wars, you would have a far more religous Europe, but also more Conservative in outlook.What if Europe had not secularized after WWII/the 1960s (not really sure of the timing)?
How might this happen, and what might be some effects?
Avoid the Second World War.
So Europe secularized as a reaction to WWII?
I know the process began around that time, but I'm not totally sure how. I vaguely recall that in Germany at least, the people reacted to how most churches collaborated with the Nazis.
I know the process began around that time, but I'm not totally sure how. I vaguely recall that in Germany at least, the people reacted to how most churches collaborated with the Nazis.
Usually by forced means. Nazism was in itself a religion and this spread to the Churches. Christianity was no longer Christianity in Germany - but simply a Nazi puppet with elements of Christianity.
I understand what you’re saying, but it’s important to differentiate between working with the Nazis, and being forced to change by them. Certaintly, most Christian groups would have rather worked against the Nazis given their more pagan/atheist ethos.
I feel that is too simplistic.So Europe secularized as a reaction to WWII?
I know the process began around that time, but I'm not totally sure how. I vaguely recall that in Germany at least, the people reacted to how most churches collaborated with the Nazis.
Stopping the Great War is next to impossible though. All it needed was a trigger, which could have been anything.
A CP victory might've helped though.
Still would have had the horrors of the war with a CP victory. A short swift conflict may well have helped though. I only think this could be achieved by somehow keeping the Russians and the Brits out. Using religious language, god knows how.Stopping the Great War is next to impossible though. All it needed was a trigger, which could have been anything.
A CP victory might've helped though.
Tut tut!
Nothing is impossible![]()
A limited war, with Britain not getting involved and thus a German victory against at least France would certaintly mean that secularisation would be less likely to occur.
Still would have had the horrors of the war with a CP victory. A short swift conflict may well have helped though. I only think this could be achieved by somehow keeping the Russians and the Brits out. Using religious language, god knows how.
If you want to stop Europe from secularising, you need to start much, much earlier. WWII had a big impact, but it was no more than the final straw in a development that has its roots in the high middle ages. NOw, if the idea is just to have Europe slightly less secular - say, as religious as the USA are today - stopping WWII might do the trick, though I suspect that a sustained economic crisis in mid-century would be even better for the purpose. But the root problems are:
- the European experience of religion is still overwhelmingly one of bureaucratic organisations. The established churches come with a huge baggage of history, governmental ties, inertia, and the constant need to be everything to all people. This religiosity of the lowest common denominator only worked as long as the denominational milieux existed and it was simply 'done' to go to church. Once that ended, they went pretty much into freefall (most spectacularly witnessaed in the German Lutheran and the Anglican churches, having gone farthest along that route). At the same time, most Europeans do not *trust* 'private' religious establishments. There seems to be a perverse conviction that "if this minister guy is so good, why isn't he working in a 'real' parish?"
- Secondly, WWII actually gave religiosity in Europe a real boost, not a knock. Church attendance spiked not only in places like Spain and Portugal (where it was practically mandatory), but also in most other countries including the Soviet Bloc, where it was officially discouraged. The safest way of getting people to be religious is to make them scared, rootless, miserable and poor. Not the only way, but it works quite reliably. And the church was hardly seen as tainted with Nazism - to most people in Germany, the church was the one major organisation *not* tainted with that brush, which is one reason why today it is Christian Democrats, not National Democrats that represent the conservative mainstream (both parties were represented in the emerging Federal Republic, but the NatDems lost heavily).
- Third, the best thing you can do for a people's religiosity is to separate church and state (actually, the best *legal* thing you can do - forcible conversion and decades of a reign of terror work better in terms of numbers). In Europe, the churches are tangled with the state at so many levels it's not funny any more. They are thus automatically associated with everything we dislike about government, while getting little of the benefit. It ensures their institutional survival beautifully in many instances, but the faithful hate it. Right-wingers and fundamentalists feel unrepresented because priests are obligated to mouth the state's mandated phrases of equality and minority rights. Left-wing religious activists are repelled by the association with state authority. Seriously spiritual people are put off by the bureaucracy, and those with a budgeted life-plan find they get too little spiritual oompah for their tithe or tax. The Catholic church is better at addressing these issues than most other established churches, but at the end of the day the established church model is more than anything else what killed religion in Europe. Initially it was too slow to secularise, driving out those who sought to combine a spiritual life with an existence as an independently thinking human, and now it can no longer offer the certainties and comforting lies that those seeking reassurance crave.