So I'm nearing the end of the 3rd Emberverse book and I really dislike them

Faeelin

Banned
That doesn't make it unattainable, though maybe the powers that be portray it as such.

Instead it's a tale told around fires when the cops aren't watching. A dream.

Frankly the United States of Boise should be busy reuniting the damn continent, but then we don't get high fantasy suckage.
 
That doesn't make it unattainable, though maybe the powers that be portray it as such.

I think we're talking past one another;

By "unattainable" (in reference to the Pre-Change world as "eden"), I was referring to the mass of technological abilities (from space-based communications on down to travelling across a State in an afternoon) that are effectively impossible to the Changelings.

Local democracy is certainly still possible, but only as possible as the other alternatives...so democracy (in our sense of the word) will be the exception and not the rule.

Instead it's a tale told around fires when the cops aren't watching. A dream.

Monopoly of force is now easier to maintain by the minority (aka "the rulers"). The "People In Arms" only gets to be workable (as a means of debating control with the Warrior Class) when the organization matures (read: becomes a corporate body on the same scale as the Legions of the Early Roman Republic)...and still tends to be dominated by the Landowners (so, effectively, still a Nobles Decide It All, just with Nobles who aren't as rich). Even England was this way, and it had a fairly militant Yeomanry (middle class landowners).

Frankly the United States of Boise should be busy reuniting the damn continent, but then we don't get high fantasy suckage.

Boise tried, but the semi-inevitable happened (even prior to CUT intervention) and we rapidly translated from Dictatorial Republic to Principate. Even under Thurston, Sr, it was more along the lines of Roman-flavored Prussia ("an Army with a Country") than a Republic.

They are also a Heavy Infantry-based military....which is not a great idea when you are fighting to build a continental empire (especially on a timetable*). Thurston, at least, had some cavalry....but there's a reason that the Romans had a massive riverine transport system (most forts being built along rivers, with a naval facility nearby). I'm a big fan of the Roman military....but that setup wouldn't enjoy the successes of the original, matched up against the Oregon states (who are several kinds of High Mediaeval military...with modern logistics practices and theory).

Again, Boise tried, but if they (absent the assassination) had pushed into Oregon...they'd have got their clocks cleaned. The Oregon states are in a very nice position (not just geographically, either) to conduct a Tactical-Defense/Strategic-Offense.

(*-wait too long, and the Changelings really have nothing in common with Pre-Change America....and you've simply recreate Rome in Idaho, trying to rule the North American Continent....and being seen as a foreign invader by most).
 
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I don't know why you think the clock is ticking. The Roman Empire's ghost was with us for centuries.

....so? The "reform the Empire" movements tended to look and (certainly) function absolutely nothing like the original. The Frankish Empire, the HRE, the various Early Modern nations, etc. AFAIK, there was no "reestablish the Roman Republic" movement, until well into the Renaissance (and when it did gain purchase, the franchise was severely restricted).

...and those were straight-up autocracies (at least in theory), trying to imitate a straight-up autocracy. Simple, right? No. The Boiseans had a generation of what was effectively martial law, and a militarized society. I'm guessing that the "Re-United States" that they would (if they could) produce would be a democracy in name only....or a very, very restricted franchise (especially since they would have just conquered most of their population).

IOW, the guys looking to "re-establish" the American Empire, in CY120, might be slaveowning land magnates who celebrate the Autumnal Equinox by burning children alive in a cauldron....if you use the "Roman Empire was remembered" model. The HRE had about that little in common with M. Aurelius' Rome.

You also miss the point that, outside of the outright Feudal domains, most of the Oregon states are effective democracies, at least on the small scale. The MacKenzies seem to function on an Assembly-Consensus model (informal Athenian Democracy), as do the Bearkillers (although most big decisions seem to be voted on by the A-Listers alone). Iowa and the other ranch-based states (CORA, etc) are just feudal domains by another name...and function according to the parameters which the Local Strongman (official though he be) can enforce, as he has a semi-monopoly on force.

Just because someone "remembers" participatory democracy (which less than half the population actually participates in, mind) does not equate to them being willing (Baron Joe/Sheriff Smith/Sir Bob/A-Lister Dave) or able (Smallfarmer Jones/Cowherd Rick/Goodman Thompson) to establish it. Most places, the people who have any influence (military or economic) at all seem to have found more comfortable systems than mass democracy (indeed, they would stand to lose the most, if the franchise was expanded). The people who would benefit the most from democracy....have the least ability to establish it.
 
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Ive read through the series and I really enjoyed the first three books (mind you in the last one I completely predicted how the war would turn out and was utterly unsurprised by every turn of events). Then we got to Rudi....and from there we have catastrophe. I mean don't get me wrong the books are still mostly interesting (albeit from an explorers point of view rather than any real plot with the super-Rudi) but super-Rudi is easily the most pretentious and annoying character I've ever read about.

All in all though I agree with most of Stirling's assumptions (US would shatter, much of the East Coast is destroyed by plague famine, will of a leader is what brings around a new society ect.) But I do admit I find some problems with them. Namely the Wiccan nation, easily the most unbelievable in the book! They would have no support and no one would like them. That and their military ideas are just laughable, an untrained woman is not going to be able to get the draw force required to pierce armor. That was my biggest dig with the Wiccans.

With the PPA, well I treated Norman as being a more eccentric Hitler who 'had a plan' and the starving masses were eager to follow him, that or die. And believe me when people are confronted with the threat of starving or a lack of democracy they will inevitably pick the latter over the former.

But I agree with many posters here in that there was potential for a better story and a much more in depth exploration of the world. Ironically in in TSOTL (book six) I really loved the point of view of the Muslim pirates as they were a fascinating read (even if horribly racially stereotyped) but they were still a pleasant break from Jesus-Rudi.

All in all the first three books are fabulous with the last three becoming wearing over time. I would certainly love a DtF redux.
 
Well I haven't read Dies the Fire but it does sound to be an interesting concept, however S&M Sterling hasn't thought much about the concept except "Everything becomes the middle ages again."

Is there no attempt to gather the scientists of the old world and attempt to find out the new laws of physics? I assume they use go "The learned men of the past are useless now, make them work on the farms!"

I would like to make a DTF redux as well.
 
Is there no attempt to gather the scientists of the old world and attempt to find out the new laws of physics? I assume they use go "The learned men of the past are useless now, make them work on the farms!"

I would like to make a DTF redux as well.
That was one of my protests, as well. There was a thread here a couple years ago which started out like DTF, except that within several days, people were discovering that magic worked. And enough of the old traditions turned out to be right that they could use it. I rather liked that premise, though they started using it a lot too easily and quickly for my sense of plausibility.

Anyway, a lot of DTF reduxes have been tried with more or less seriousness; in one map game off of it, I played the Conch Kingdom (Key West survives off fishing), the Republic of Texas (enough farms), and Socialist Columbia (urban gangs with Communist rhetoric take over Washington City). Unfortunately for plausibility, someone else played New York City and said it survived. With a more or less democratic government. Sigh.
 
Well I haven't read Dies the Fire but it does sound to be an interesting concept, however S&M Sterling hasn't thought much about the concept except "Everything becomes the middle ages again."

Is there no attempt to gather the scientists of the old world and attempt to find out the new laws of physics? I assume they use go "The learned men of the past are useless now, make them work on the farms!"

The problem is that the Change (which is not a single modification, but a set of ongoing/simultaneous changes that allow or disallow a given action/process on a case-by-case basis....thus nerves function, but circuits do not) effectively limits the amount of scientific investigation into itself. A couple of the "engineer" characters (Ken Larssen, etc) do develop a working theory as to what has happened, and the new bounds of processes (heat engines work...but only in reverse, etc).

If anything scientists and engineers are more valuable, postChange, as they enable the "mediaeval" stuff to work more efficiently (plate armor is much more common due to hydropowered machine presses, mortality is at the 1900 level due to antiseptic procedure and germ theory, etc).
 
Anyway, a lot of DTF reduxes have been tried with more or less seriousness; in one map game off of it, I played the Conch Kingdom (Key West survives off fishing), the Republic of Texas (enough farms), and Socialist Columbia (urban gangs with Communist rhetoric take over Washington City). Unfortunately for plausibility, someone else played New York City and said it survived. With a more or less democratic government. Sigh.

I remember that game! It was fun until things got out of hand towards the end, if you ever think of starting a new map game, I'd be in!
 
I remember that game! It was fun until things got out of hand towards the end, if you ever think of starting a new map game, I'd be in!
Oh, thanks! But I wasn't the one who started it, and I'm not sure I have enough time to get involved in a new map game around now.

A narrative version would be a definite possibility, though. A full redux TL would be nice, but a retrospective - perhaps a history book a couple generations post-Fall - would be different and would really emphasize the post-Fall perspectives and the sense of awe at what happened.

You know, I might try my hand at that sometime soon.
 
Oh, thanks! But I wasn't the one who started it, and I'm not sure I have enough time to get involved in a new map game around now.


You know, I might try my hand at that sometime soon.

Hmmm maybe ill start a new one and you can drop in from time to time. A new rule I would add would be making the east coast and other high density areas off limits for a certain amount of time, so we dont have nations like chicago,new york, and california being superpowers when thats unplausible at best.

And if you make a timeline I would love to help out or you could use me to bounce ideas off of.
 
Hmmm maybe ill start a new one and you can drop in from time to time. A new rule I would add would be making the east coast and other high density areas off limits for a certain amount of time, so we dont have nations like chicago,new york, and california being superpowers when thats unplausible at best.
Sounds like a nice idea. PM me when you're starting, would you?
 
I am a little over halfway through the High King of Montival now. I don't particularly care for it. In the first trilogy I could get through several chapters in one sitting. Now I get bored after less than one. The *only* way a character like Artos-Rudi could work would be if his "legend" was told in retrospective third person by either one of his companions or a bard. Knowing what goes on in his head just makes him seem like an annoying, pretentious moron. (THE Ard Rí IS THE BEST IDEA EVER. I CAN'T SEE HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG. IT WORKED SO WELL HISTORICALLY, AFTER ALL.)

I don't have a lot of issues with the setting. The only things about it that bothers me are the Rangers and how the Changelings view the pre-change world. Rudi, however, infuriates me to no end.

It would be nice if it turned out that the sword was actually intended for someone else. Edain's dog would have been preferable as a recipient of the Sword, if you ask me. :p
 
Spoiler Alert, big time. Spoilers for a number of Stirling works, including "Emberverse" and the Draka-series.


In terms of Christianity and its portrayal: I'm Jewish, and Brother Ignatious almost made me want to become Catholic. First of all, he's awesome, the complete and absolute ideal of who you would want as a spiritual advisor, friend, and co-combatant. Second, the way he draws on his faith to support his character, and his character is extremely appealing. (In general, he's very positive, non-judgmental, very warm, never whines or shirks or anything stupid.) AND he has a meeting with Saint Mary, which is portrayed as at least as "real" as any of the Wiccan encounters depicted with MacKenzies and Mackenzies. And, oh, by the way, the Pope is a background figure of heroic dimension, and the Anglican and Catholic churches have re-united. To top it off, the frisson accompanying Brother Ignatius's battle-cry almost makes me want to be one of the Pope's Marines or something like that.

Re: Dogging the past: I think something interesting that Stirling does is get sufficiently into a character's perspective that he ends up being accused of endorsing that character's perspective. Remember, when he was accused of being pro-whatever-the-Draka-stood-for including his not-so-happy ending for The Alliance For Democracy, he replied, "It's a dystopia, you twit."

Keep in mind that for every part showing Walker or Vashon having the time of their lives, there were parts showing Alston and Cofflin grimly doing the hard work of saving the world from Walker and showing Kustaa or the LaFarges having to suppress strong revulsion when in Draka territory.

There are parts showing Havel and Juniper at times genuinely ruing the loss of pre-change benefits. (I think it was Juniper or Denny who very quickly grasped that the end of fire-arms would actually be a Very Bad Thing.) Havel, conducting the annual change-day ceremony, has that private sliver of hope that the match dropped on the gunpowder will spark a different reaction.

I think that a lot of what you see with the post-change cast expressing about their world reflects growing up with adults who reminisced about pre-change things. If I can figure that out, then I imagine Stirling meant for that as part of a character's perspective, and, not his endorsing the idea of bringing the world to such straits.

If you want something comparable, look at World War Z. A couple of interviewees talk about the good things that have come from the disaster that they struggled with, such as people getting re-acquainted with honest work, strong communities, etc., but no one with a stitch of sense is going to say, wow, they're really glad the zombie epidemic happened.

I think that WW3 book from the early 1980s --the one with two guys trekking across the country to See What's Happening in America after the big kabooms-- there's an accentuated appreciation in interpersonal relationships --the two friends embrace instead of shaking hands-- and affection for a Dodge Dart not affected by the pulse-thing. (EMP, I think.)

I think in a lot of post-apoc/dystopian narratives, you will see at some point a perspective of appreciation for whatever thin silver lining can be had from the mushroom cloud or otherwise.
 
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Also the rapidity with which everyone seems to go back to feudalism--I would expect some of the less-affected areas, like Iowa, to retain more of the mechanisms of a republic.
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On the other hand, I think a few of the complaints here are not quite fair--the United States of Boise certainly has pretensions of being an American successor state, and they've been re-developing enough technology to have at least one pedal-powered airship. (Not to mention the hang-gliders and whatnot, even in Oregon.) Iowa has retained credible levels of industry, and probably so have the other Midwestern states.


I agree with you about the tech, to the extent that they can there are plenty of examples of tech being sought and used. Another neat example is Daddy Carlson's arsenal of home-engineered catapults and stuff, and the high level of esteem held for railways and railway handcarts. And, yeah, the PPA may be all medieval, but as you noted, gliders were part of their thing, not to mention the improvised crank-drive boats, etc.


As for the swift move to non-Democratic forms of government, I'm guessing that priorities in a crisis abruptly shift. Even after 9/11, all of a sudden the American government endorses and defends the use of torture and the Patriot Act and so on, to use a comparitively mild example. If post-change memories include seeing people die of plague or starvation and fighting off cannibals, I'm guessing political procedure takes a back seat for a while. For what it's worth, iirc, Havel was pondering the creation of a House of Burgesses, and the Boise group's plans for elections were only scotched when the older son committed heinous betrayal.

On a comparable line of thought, I'm wondering if the King of Montival thing would be as welcome if the CUT wasn't threatening to inflict misery and destruction on a scale that makes Pol Pot look like Fred Rogers, more or less.
 
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Is there no attempt to gather the scientists of the old world and attempt to find out the new laws of physics? I assume they use go "The learned men of the past are useless now, make them work on the farms!"

...


Even better: They got eaten.

(Spoiler: In the first book, when one of the Good Guys groups thrashes a group of cannibals, one of the folks they rescue is a guy with a missing foot (the foot got eaten, the rest of him saved for later) who turns out to be a freaking doctor.

I'm reckoning most of the best scientist-folks were in urban areas. With The Change, a city all of a sudden becames a relatively small parcel of non-food-producing land and limited water supply containing millions of people inflicted with a deep sense of crisis. (In other words, a few make it to safety and the rest kind of get caught up in famine/plague/filthy fight over the last of whatever is edible/etc.)
 
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