Other than gunpowder, I don't see how the Change would make the US any less capacle than it was at the beginning of the 19th century. Add in developments in chemistry, mechanics, and biology that weren't effected and you have a society that may just be agrarian by simple majority. Remember, the US was very connected before the advent of railroads: toll roads, canals, coastal shipping, rivers, etc. Big cities could still be fed from somewhat far away places (Ohio to the East coast, for example).
So I'm nearing the end of the 3rd Emberverse book and I really dislike them
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Other than gunpowder, I don't see how the Change would make the US any less capacle than it was at the beginning of the 19th century. Add in developments in chemistry, mechanics, and biology that weren't effected and you have a society that may just be agrarian by simple majority. Remember, the US was very connected before the advent of railroads: toll roads, canals, coastal shipping, rivers, etc. Big cities could still be fed from somewhat far away places (Ohio to the East coast, for example).
From the looks of it the soldier or cop that he fought against may have been just Reservists or didn't know how to fight and Arminger was actually a good fighter since he did kill Havel. More then likely as a psychological ploy to show the Gangs that the old order was over and so they should join him. Plus from what I gathered the SCA members mostly just trainned those who didn't know how to fight with the weapons or used their technical skills in making armor and so forth.
Actually looking at things, more then half of the founding Post-Change states had alot of military member makeup to them.
The only straight military state would be the United States of Boise under General Thurston I believe, while the Bearkillers had Ex-Marine Havel and picked up other military members along the way. The Mackenzies had most notably Sam a Ex-SAS (and later in the series they got the Lorings and Little John, all Ex-SAS). In fanfiction 'Fire' the main character was a Ex-Air Force MP and the two main antagonists also had military trainning I believe. Also in another the Coast Guard from Astoria, Oregon relocated to Newport to avoid Arminger and probably helped Corvallis alot. Iowa had the disposal of the Iowan National Guard and police forces. Arminger also had his 'Tryouts' where he pitted anyone who wanted to join the PPA's armed forces to battle to the death events and it seems likely from this alot of military members probably joinned up from the Portland area.
On the general lack of discipline shown in the initial books. Well consider how much of modern society (all of it) relys on the technology that now due to the ASBs doesn't work. Not only would that lead to the collapse that he shows in his novels but also consider the psychological affects. We rely on technology for everything (especially the technophilic US, Western Europe and West Pacific). When that suddenly and inexplicably disappears then a lot of people are going to break down in some way.
That may explain why so many people easily submit to the new regimes that appear (PPA, CUT, Bearkillers, Mackenzies etc) because people are too traumatized to organize themselves and will follow the first person to give them order in the chaos and confusion.
Ibn some cases I'm amazed why there weren't more batshit regimes following an adapted form of Communism, Fundamentalism or some new religions forming from people who believe that god has shown them (I'm Catholic anyway).
Of course the complete disregard towrds the memory of the USA doesn't make sense to me. Especially since it is an analogy towards the collapse of the Roman Empire which was pined after for centuries in Europe.
That may explain why so many people easily submit to the new regimes that appear (PPA, CUT, Bearkillers, Mackenzies etc) because people are too traumatized to organize themselves and will follow the first person to give them order in the chaos and confusion.
Ibn some cases I'm amazed why there weren't more batshit regimes following an adapted form of Communism, Fundamentalism or some new religions forming from people who believe that god has shown them (I'm Catholic anyway).
Of course the complete disregard towrds the memory of the USA doesn't make sense to me. Especially since it is an analogy towards the collapse of the Roman Empire which was pined after for centuries in Europe.
Personally I think that Fascism, Communism, or Theocracy following DTF is possible. It is in our (well 1999) mindset.
But this "I will whip you peasant unless you call me Duke" BS that PPA had was not in the Americans mindset. Especially in 3 months and most especially with and I have said this about 10 times when the PPA had unfriendly neighbors. It would be easy for the serfs to run south and far to easy for the Bear Cultists to make serfdom unprofitable. Portland is not an island.
Especially after the third book. After that the Association was pretty much forced to treat their serfs better in order to make them stay.
I am currently on the fifth/second book myself. I loved the first three books, unrealistic elements aside, and while I don't dislike the second half of the series either, it's kind of annoying to have a Gary Stu like Rudi be the focus of the plot. I definitely agree with a lot of the criticism directed at the Emberverse in this thread, though I can't say most of it bothered me much when I read the novels myself. (Unless it has to do with Rudi. He annoys me to no end.)
I am currently on the fifth/second book myself. I loved the first three books, unrealistic elements aside, and while I don't dislike the second half of the series either, it's kind of annoying to have a Gary Stu like Rudi be the focus of the plot. I definitely agree with a lot of the criticism directed at the Emberverse in this thread, though I can't say most of it bothered me much when I read the novels myself. (Unless it has to do with Rudi. He annoys me to no end.)
I agree with that as well, I enjoyed the transition from 21st century to the middle ages but with alot of the 21st century knowledge.
What I don't like was the wiccans becoming so popular so fast and the magic that's been creeping in since the 2nd book, and yea rudi is...to perfect
Most of the "magic" in the first three novels could be explained away as Juniper - and a small selection of other characters - having some sort of deep-seated underlying mental issues that came out in certain situations, often involving death. Heck, could be some sort of multiple personality disorder or something along those lines. (That's how I chose to interpret it, anyway. Other mystical occurrences like the stuff with the raven at the wedding only seems significant if you chose to interpret it as something magical or religious.)
It's in the second half of the Emberverse series that it shifts from "Hey, this is sort of mysterious. Could it be magic?" to "The Magical Magic of our Gods is wonderful indeed. However, some Gods are Bad Gods and their Magical Magic of Magic is Bad and Evil."
I miss Michael Havel. The parts that focused on him were always the ones I enjoyed reading the most.
It's in the second half of the Emberverse series that it shifts from "Hey, this is sort of mysterious. Could it be magic?" to "The Magical Magic of our Gods is wonderful indeed. However, some Gods are Bad Gods and their Magical Magic of Magic is Bad and Evil."
I miss Michael Havel. The parts that focused on him were always the ones I enjoyed reading the most.
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Me too. He was such a sensible guy, one of my favorite characters - him and what's-his-name, the sergeant at Boise who refused to recognize President Thurston's self-promotion until he retook Washington and held elections.
One big problem with the "present" gameplan is that Rudi* is now going to be the father of the next Protector....and heavily influential on the child's own Religion.
This is not a recipe for a stable realm, once the CUT War is over and the Associates start looking further ahead than the next campaign season. Most of them (and all the Changelings, evidently) to have fully bought into the Protectorate's fresh-out-of-the-Council-of-Trent version of Catholic Christianity....so a potential Pagan monarch is not going to work.
There's going to be a coup. Omni-killing lesbian or not. At the very least, the Associates are going to gang up and demand he promise that the children will be raised as Christians.
*-Rudi himself, as just High King, is probably tolerable....but not as the dude who tells the future Protector that "yeah, Wicca is just as valid a choice as Christianity"...'cause the vast majority of the Protector's future vassals disagree strongly.
This is not a recipe for a stable realm, once the CUT War is over and the Associates start looking further ahead than the next campaign season. Most of them (and all the Changelings, evidently) to have fully bought into the Protectorate's fresh-out-of-the-Council-of-Trent version of Catholic Christianity....so a potential Pagan monarch is not going to work.
There's going to be a coup. Omni-killing lesbian or not. At the very least, the Associates are going to gang up and demand he promise that the children will be raised as Christians.
*-Rudi himself, as just High King, is probably tolerable....but not as the dude who tells the future Protector that "yeah, Wicca is just as valid a choice as Christianity"...'cause the vast majority of the Protector's future vassals disagree strongly.
Odin did say that Rudi would die before he got old, so we could end up with yet another case of a future ruler being raised primarily by his mother due to having lost his father at an early age. Depending on how things turn out, this could result in a Catholic Protector and/or High King who would still respect, if not be a part of, the Old Religion.
But yeah, the Association would never accept a follower of the Old Religion as their Lord Protector, and the whole High King title will probably end up having little more value as far as authority is concerned than that of Holy Roman Emperor in the future anyway.
But yeah, the Association would never accept a follower of the Old Religion as their Lord Protector, and the whole High King title will probably end up having little more value as far as authority is concerned than that of Holy Roman Emperor in the future anyway.
That's probably the "optimal" (if one favors the continuance of Montival as a concept, rather than a return to pre-war status quo) outcome.
Based on at least some of the dialogue, it's generally based on the historical Irish High Kingship (Ard Ri).....which is a hysterically bad model to base any kind of government (even a pro forma one) on. The High Kings never could stop the kingdoms from warring with one another...or unite them against external threats. There were even periods when the High Kingship was vacant...and no one seemed to notice.
I keep waiting for Stirling to unveil the punchline, but nothing so far.
Establishing Rudi as a Demi-God King (via the "blessing" heaped upon him, magic horse, fanatic friends, and magic swords) was potentially a grave error on Stirling's part...especially as he seems to be without a counterpart (absent Sethaz) anywhere on Earth. King-Emperor Willy and Prince Pyotr would have been decent candidates, showing that the entire world does not literally revolve around Rudi.
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Turtledove is best with his short stories that do the job and then get out. When he goes into a lengthy series, he tends to repeat himself a lot and drags the story out longer than is necessary for it to be told.
Ignoring the religion question: Corvallis probably will start chafing at the High Kingship in a hurry. They are a (semi)democracy, with at least a bit of Rome/Venice in them, and seem to be the Oregon state with the most "expansion" potential (modern army, heavy industry, etc)....I wouldn't be surprised to see them start to wag the dog, economically and militarily.
The Association (which is not the same thing as the Protectorate*) could end up doing that, too. A lot of younger sons of the Barons (and ambitious knights) will probably be setting their sights on claiming estates for themselves in California and Washington/British Columbia....
*-the Protector can't rule like Louis XIV or Henry VIII. Piss off the Barons (the senior Associates) as a group and you're in trouble. Even with Tiphaine (who only works as a guard dog if you can still maneuver your opponents into honor/judicial duels....if they are in the field against you, she's lost a lot of her threat).
The Association (which is not the same thing as the Protectorate*) could end up doing that, too. A lot of younger sons of the Barons (and ambitious knights) will probably be setting their sights on claiming estates for themselves in California and Washington/British Columbia....
*-the Protector can't rule like Louis XIV or Henry VIII. Piss off the Barons (the senior Associates) as a group and you're in trouble. Even with Tiphaine (who only works as a guard dog if you can still maneuver your opponents into honor/judicial duels....if they are in the field against you, she's lost a lot of her threat).
Two items:
I wonder if anyone is going to occupy Vancouver Island...it's basically a small version of Britain, off the coast of BC.
Big fishing, forestry, temperate rainforests, a couple of decent-sized urban areas to mine. Defensible.
Supposedly, the Haida are big raiders (Pacific Vikings), but don't seem to have the numbers to take on big settlements.
Also, I always thought it would have been more interesting had one of the other members of the Quest (Ingolf or one of the Twins, perhaps) got an interview in the Nantucket Vortex with.....say: William (King of Men) Walker, Norman Arminger and Mike Havel. Who would have a different perspective (and counterpart buffs for the recipient) than the Marion/Swindapa/Juniper hydra offered Rudi. A minority report, as it were.
That way, there's at least some tension within the "good guys" camp....rather than just a total coversion to Rudi-ism.
I wonder if anyone is going to occupy Vancouver Island...it's basically a small version of Britain, off the coast of BC.
Big fishing, forestry, temperate rainforests, a couple of decent-sized urban areas to mine. Defensible.
Supposedly, the Haida are big raiders (Pacific Vikings), but don't seem to have the numbers to take on big settlements.
Also, I always thought it would have been more interesting had one of the other members of the Quest (Ingolf or one of the Twins, perhaps) got an interview in the Nantucket Vortex with.....say: William (King of Men) Walker, Norman Arminger and Mike Havel. Who would have a different perspective (and counterpart buffs for the recipient) than the Marion/Swindapa/Juniper hydra offered Rudi. A minority report, as it were.
That way, there's at least some tension within the "good guys" camp....rather than just a total coversion to Rudi-ism.
Most people I talk to think the magic is going to be explained as time traveling human-ish cultures attempting to change the past to fit their future world view. Much like the backround stories in Belisarius series by David Drake and Eric Flint.
Havel was a fool. Any sane person wouldn't have settled so close to the PPA.
I think Vancouver is mentioned as being a part of the PPA. At the very least the PPA has expanded north of the old US/Canadian border to cause conflict with the Canadian successor republics.
Stirling hinted that he had more plans for the Haida but nothing ever came of it. I find it hard to believe that and group survive well enough in Alaska to be much of a threat to a nation as powerful as the PPA.
But the again the world isn't developed in enough detail to answer many basic questions. Like if the USof B is so powerful why would it allow the PPA to gain control of northern Oregon, all of Washington, and part of British Columbia without a series of wars. Or why was the Mormon nation so quick to fall apart when one city fell in eastern Idaho? Why would the US of B allow a independent Mormon city in Idaho? If Stirlings maps are to be believed the Mormon state should be much larger than that.
Due to the....spartan form of map we are given, it's hard to say where the Dominion starts (and thus, where the PPA/Dominion interface is). Given that we don't see a lot of talk about the Protectorate as expanding in a maritime fashion, they might just have continued up into the interior of BC (probably stopped at the frost line). Vancouver has "declare yourself a Duke" written all over it, for the first popular Baron settling it.
I think the Haida are mainly threats to the coastal baronies (Tillamook, etc), and the outlying settlements of those at that. No storming of castles, just smash & grabs on fishing villages and small ports.
I took it that the CUT had been going at the Mormons for a while (long enough for the Mormons to ally with USoB), and that the CUT "invasion" was more a seasonal migration of tens of thousands of horse archers into the Mormon territory. When they lost Twin Falls (and probably the bulk of their Army and military age males), it cut their center of gravity out.....and the remaining settlements were either out of the game, or within the CUT zone of control (like the settlement raided by the returning cowboys that the Questers encounter).
A Much more developed map can be found here:
http://zetachannel.com/media/emberverse/
And the map shows, and they say it in the book as well, but new desert is still very much in the fight, the loss of twin falls only made there northern front fall apart. However new desert is still active in southern Utah and as roving bands of farmers/soliders
http://zetachannel.com/media/emberverse/
And the map shows, and they say it in the book as well, but new desert is still very much in the fight, the loss of twin falls only made there northern front fall apart. However new desert is still active in southern Utah and as roving bands of farmers/soliders
Again I just find it unlikely that the PPA would be given enough time to get set up. Or at least to expand. The PPA had 90% of it's people as serfs and 3 neighbors that were unfriendly and powerful. Give the serfs weapons and invade to free them.
Or again Stirling was trying to hard to have DTF match the timeline of ISOT. But Walker left twice to get away from his enemies. In DTF the PPA's enemies just sit around preparing for the next war. They don't try to stop it.
Nantucket is far from England and Greece. Portland is not far at all from Corvallis.