I've been thinking about this scenario and what the ramifications could be if Louis XV had been less picky/cared more about his daughters getting married lol. Especially if any can manage to become Queen/Duchess somewhere (I know he probably wanted them all as Queens or nothing, but there's only so many to go around realistically). What alliances might he make and which daughters would he marry to who? Perhaps into Spain or Austria? I'm also interested to see how this affects the marriages of Maria Theresa's offspring, assuming it doesn't butterfly any of them away (for simplicities sake we can say it doesn't, and I am hoping to see some of Maria's other children survive like Maria Johanna and Maria Josepha)
Louis XV makes more of an effort to marry his daughters off
- Thread starter noturaveragejoe0316
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- 18th century louis xv
I discussed this with @VVD0D95 a few years ago that "basically" the way to "ensure" this is to kill Friedrich Christian of Saxony in infancy. His mom wanted him to either abdicate his rights to the throne (and retire to a monastery) or only inherit Saxony, leaving Poland to her "favourite", Prince Xaver. When the topic of the dauphin's second wife was broached with Saxony, there was a suggestion of a double match (much like there had been with Spain): the dauphin would marry Maria Josepha, and Prince Xaver would marry Madame Adélaïde (conditional on Friedrich Christian renouncing his rights to Poland so Xaver could be king). Friedrich Christian refused and the idea died in the water.
The schema that we came up with:
Louise Élisabeth to her OTL husband
Henriette to a restored Bonnie Prince Charlie
Adélaïde either to Xaver of Saxony (if his brother dies) or Max III Joseph of Bavaria (if Friedrich Christian doesn't)
Victoire to Max III of Bavaria (if Adélaïde doesn't marry him) or Xaver of Saxony
Sophie is a bit of a wild card that ICR where we decided she ended up
Course, there are other combinations as well:
Barbara of Portugal dies earlier, and Henriette marries Fernando VI like her sister was intriguing
Maria Teresa Cybo's Savoiard husband isn't killed, so Ercole III needs a different wife
Maria Antonietta of Spain marries Friedrich Christian/Xaver of Saxony, so the duke of Savoy needs a new wife
Elisabeth Auguste of Sulzbach dies in childbed with a wedding night baby, so Karl Theodor needs a new wife
The duke of Württemberg's mother (Auguste of Thurn und Taxis) accomplishes it that Maria Theresia backs the duke's sister as an Austrian proxy for either the dauphin or some French prince du sang, and one of Louis XV's daughters winds up in Stuttgart instead*
*we discussed this when looking for a second wife for Bonnie Prince Charlie after Henriette died, that Frederick the Great would likely offer his sister (Anna Amalie) or his niece (Elisabeth of Bayreuth) as a potential wife for Charlie like he did OTL. In which case, if Maria Theresia still refuses the duke's request to marry Maria Elisabeth of Austria, Karl Eugen needs a new wife.
Lots of stuff to play with
To be fair, it wasn’t necessarily Louis XV being picky—he had the misfortune of having a vast number of daughters at time with lots of other royal families also had a lot of daughters. There was sort of an explosion of the number of surviving princesses/princes within Europe’s royal families at this time. There was a dearth of princesses and simply not enough princes for them all.
Louis XV’s own daughters were also… quite the characters. Given the dearth of daughters that the king had, Cardinal Fleury convinced the king that it would be too expensive for the youngest princesses to be raised at court, and suppressed their household. They were sent to the Abbey of Fontevraud. Those that were sent to the convent had their educations badly neglected.
I’d say that some of his daughters were more finicky or picky than the king himself. His daughter Adelaide, for instance was suggested as a bride for Francis Xavier of Saxony and the Prince of Conti—but both matches were considered inferior; the Saxon Prince was a second (surviving) son, while Conti was a Prince du Sang.
For some of the princesses, remaining an unwed Fille de France and maintaining their rank which they held since birth at Versailles was considered better than marrying a man of lesser rank. Of course, not all of them were like this; Henriette fell in love with Louis Philippe, heir to the Duke of Orléans and wanted to marry him. Louis XV initially agreed, but then changed his mind—iirc Louis XV was somewhat prejudiced towards the House of Orléans and feared that their influence might increase further if the heir of Orléans married one of his daughters.
Even when Adelaide finally had the chance to snag a king in the 1760s when the Queen of Spain died, she still refused—allegedly she saw Charles III’s portrait and refused to marry him. The Mesdames are all quite a bunch of interesting characters!
Louis XV’s own daughters were also… quite the characters. Given the dearth of daughters that the king had, Cardinal Fleury convinced the king that it would be too expensive for the youngest princesses to be raised at court, and suppressed their household. They were sent to the Abbey of Fontevraud. Those that were sent to the convent had their educations badly neglected.
I’d say that some of his daughters were more finicky or picky than the king himself. His daughter Adelaide, for instance was suggested as a bride for Francis Xavier of Saxony and the Prince of Conti—but both matches were considered inferior; the Saxon Prince was a second (surviving) son, while Conti was a Prince du Sang.
For some of the princesses, remaining an unwed Fille de France and maintaining their rank which they held since birth at Versailles was considered better than marrying a man of lesser rank. Of course, not all of them were like this; Henriette fell in love with Louis Philippe, heir to the Duke of Orléans and wanted to marry him. Louis XV initially agreed, but then changed his mind—iirc Louis XV was somewhat prejudiced towards the House of Orléans and feared that their influence might increase further if the heir of Orléans married one of his daughters.
Even when Adelaide finally had the chance to snag a king in the 1760s when the Queen of Spain died, she still refused—allegedly she saw Charles III’s portrait and refused to marry him. The Mesdames are all quite a bunch of interesting characters!
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see why I said if Friedrich Christian of Saxony died young it could help
fair point, I wasn't sure if it was him not caring or just having too many daughters, I hadn't considered other royals had too many daughters as well, but it makes sense and explains why most of them stayed unmarried, I guess I was just shocked looking at his wikipedia page and seeing that out of 6 daughters only one got married; I understand them not all getting married but only 1? But I'm probably being too harsh on old Louis lol, especially if his daughters were the ones being picky
possible marriages
King Louis XV (1710-1774) married Marie Leszczyńska (1703-1768) had:
1. Marie Louise Elisabeth (1727-1759) married Philip, Duke of Parma (1720-1765), had;
1a) Isabella (1741-1763)
1b) Ferdinand (1751-1802)
1c) Luisa Maria Teresa (1751-1819)
2. Anne Henriette (1727-1770) married Ferdinand VI of Spain in 1751, (1713-1759), had:
2a) Maria Luisa of Spain (b. 1753)
2b) Maria Isabel of Spain (b. 1755)
2c) Felipe VI of Spain (1756-1771)
3. Louis, Dauphin of France (1729-1765) married Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767), had:
3a) Louis XVI Auguste (b. 1754)
3b) Louis Stanislas Xavier (b. 1755)
3c) Charles Philippe (b. 1757)
3d) Marie Clotilde (1759-1802)
3e) Elisabeth (b. 1764)
4. Marie Adelaide (1732-1800) married Francis Xavier of Saxony (1730-1806), had:
4a) Ludwig Joseph of Saxony (b. 1751)
4b) Maria Amalia of Saxony (b. 1753)
4c) Maria Christina of Saxony (b. 1754)
4d) Joseph Karl of Saxony (b. 1756)
4e) Karl Christian of Saxony (1758-1774)
5. Victoire Louise (1733-1799) married Maximilian III Joseph of Bavaria (1727-1777), had:
5a) Karl Joseph of Bavaria (b. 1751)
5b) Maria Amalia of Bavaria (b 1753)
5c) Maria Antonia of Bavaria (b. 1756)
5d) Maria Josepha of Bavaria (b. 1758)
5e) Friedrich Christian of Bavaria (1760-1768)
6. Sophie Philippine (1734-1782), unmarried
7. Louise Marie (1737-1787), unmarried
1. Marie Louise Elisabeth (1727-1759) married Philip, Duke of Parma (1720-1765), had;
1a) Isabella (1741-1763)
1b) Ferdinand (1751-1802)
1c) Luisa Maria Teresa (1751-1819)
2. Anne Henriette (1727-1770) married Ferdinand VI of Spain in 1751, (1713-1759), had:
2a) Maria Luisa of Spain (b. 1753)
2b) Maria Isabel of Spain (b. 1755)
2c) Felipe VI of Spain (1756-1771)
3. Louis, Dauphin of France (1729-1765) married Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767), had:
3a) Louis XVI Auguste (b. 1754)
3b) Louis Stanislas Xavier (b. 1755)
3c) Charles Philippe (b. 1757)
3d) Marie Clotilde (1759-1802)
3e) Elisabeth (b. 1764)
4. Marie Adelaide (1732-1800) married Francis Xavier of Saxony (1730-1806), had:
4a) Ludwig Joseph of Saxony (b. 1751)
4b) Maria Amalia of Saxony (b. 1753)
4c) Maria Christina of Saxony (b. 1754)
4d) Joseph Karl of Saxony (b. 1756)
4e) Karl Christian of Saxony (1758-1774)
5. Victoire Louise (1733-1799) married Maximilian III Joseph of Bavaria (1727-1777), had:
5a) Karl Joseph of Bavaria (b. 1751)
5b) Maria Amalia of Bavaria (b 1753)
5c) Maria Antonia of Bavaria (b. 1756)
5d) Maria Josepha of Bavaria (b. 1758)
5e) Friedrich Christian of Bavaria (1760-1768)
6. Sophie Philippine (1734-1782), unmarried
7. Louise Marie (1737-1787), unmarried
alt for Anne Henriette marrying bonnie prince Charlie
King Louis XV (1710-1774) married Marie Leszczyńska (1703-1768) had:
1. Marie Louise Elisabeth (1727-1759) married Philip, Duke of Parma (1720-1765), had;
1a) Isabella (1741-1763)
1b) Ferdinand (1751-1802)
1c) Luisa Maria Teresa (1751-1819)
2. Anne Henriette (1727-1770) married Charles III of Great Britain (1720-1788), had:
2a) James VII of Great Britain (b. 1748)
2b) Henrietta of Great Britain (b. 1750)
2c) Charlotte of Great Britain (b. 1751)
2d) Henry of Great Britain (b. 1754)
2e) Elizabeth of Great Britain (b. 1756)
3. Louis, Dauphin of France (1729-1765) married Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767), had:
3a) Louis XVI Auguste (b. 1754)
3b) Louis Stanislas Xavier (b. 1755)
3c) Charles Philippe (b. 1757)
3d) Marie Clotilde (1759-1802)
3e) Elisabeth (b. 1764)
4. Marie Adelaide (1732-1800) married Francis Xavier of Saxony (1730-1806), had:
4a) Ludwig Joseph of Saxony (b. 1751)
4b) Maria Amalia of Saxony (b. 1753)
4c) Maria Christina of Saxony (b. 1754)
4d) Joseph Karl of Saxony (b. 1756)
4e) Karl Christian of Saxony (1758-1774)
5. Victoire Louise (1733-1799) married Maximilian III Joseph of Bavaria (1727-1777), had:
5a) Karl Joseph of Bavaria (b. 1751)
5b) Maria Amalia of Bavaria (b 1753)
5c) Maria Antonia of Bavaria (b. 1756)
5d) Maria Josepha of Bavaria (b. 1758)
5e) Friedrich Christian of Bavaria (1760-1768)
6. Sophie Philippine (1734-1782), unmarried
7. Louise Marie (1737-1787), unmarried
1. Marie Louise Elisabeth (1727-1759) married Philip, Duke of Parma (1720-1765), had;
1a) Isabella (1741-1763)
1b) Ferdinand (1751-1802)
1c) Luisa Maria Teresa (1751-1819)
2. Anne Henriette (1727-1770) married Charles III of Great Britain (1720-1788), had:
2a) James VII of Great Britain (b. 1748)
2b) Henrietta of Great Britain (b. 1750)
2c) Charlotte of Great Britain (b. 1751)
2d) Henry of Great Britain (b. 1754)
2e) Elizabeth of Great Britain (b. 1756)
3. Louis, Dauphin of France (1729-1765) married Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767), had:
3a) Louis XVI Auguste (b. 1754)
3b) Louis Stanislas Xavier (b. 1755)
3c) Charles Philippe (b. 1757)
3d) Marie Clotilde (1759-1802)
3e) Elisabeth (b. 1764)
4. Marie Adelaide (1732-1800) married Francis Xavier of Saxony (1730-1806), had:
4a) Ludwig Joseph of Saxony (b. 1751)
4b) Maria Amalia of Saxony (b. 1753)
4c) Maria Christina of Saxony (b. 1754)
4d) Joseph Karl of Saxony (b. 1756)
4e) Karl Christian of Saxony (1758-1774)
5. Victoire Louise (1733-1799) married Maximilian III Joseph of Bavaria (1727-1777), had:
5a) Karl Joseph of Bavaria (b. 1751)
5b) Maria Amalia of Bavaria (b 1753)
5c) Maria Antonia of Bavaria (b. 1756)
5d) Maria Josepha of Bavaria (b. 1758)
5e) Friedrich Christian of Bavaria (1760-1768)
6. Sophie Philippine (1734-1782), unmarried
7. Louise Marie (1737-1787), unmarried
The number of Catholic eligible princes was quite small indeed, the children of Augustus III of Poland (Frederick Augustus II of Saxony) come to mind as Frederick Christian (born 1722), Franz Xavier (born 1730), Charles (born in 1733) and Albert Kasimir (born in 1738) might have been candidates.
In Spain, perhaps Infante Luis (1727-1785) could have been a candidate for Henriette. In neighbouring Portugal, the future Pedro III (born in 1717) could have been wed to one of the French princesses before wedding his niece in 1760, all except Louise were younger than the future Maria I.
In Spain, perhaps Infante Luis (1727-1785) could have been a candidate for Henriette. In neighbouring Portugal, the future Pedro III (born in 1717) could have been wed to one of the French princesses before wedding his niece in 1760, all except Louise were younger than the future Maria I.
Here are several princes that were born in the 1720s and 1730s:
- Fredrick V of Denmark
- Henry Stuart (last of the Jacobites)
- Stanislaw II August
- Victor III of Sardinia
Fredrick is protestant and I doubt Sardinia/Savory would want to be in a alliance with France so that leaves you with a pretender in exile or a Pole if you want to marry royalty.
- Fredrick V of Denmark
- Henry Stuart (last of the Jacobites)
- Stanislaw II August
- Victor III of Sardinia
Fredrick is protestant and I doubt Sardinia/Savory would want to be in a alliance with France so that leaves you with a pretender in exile or a Pole if you want to marry royalty.
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could be a good match if France has designs to get him back on the throne
this could also work since their mother was Polish, can't remember if it was his family or anothers that were the Rivals of her family
thats fair, but they did marry a few french princesses and I think Victor's grandmother was a d'Orleans, iirc
Indeed. Victor Amadeus II was married to Anne Marie d'Orléans.
His son, Charles Emmanuel was fairly fluid in his alliances: fought alongside France in the War of the Polish Succession, supported Maria Theresa in the War of the Austrian Succession, sat out the Seven Years War. His son, Victor Amadeus III better relations with France: his son married Marie Clotilde, and then two of his daughters married Louis XVIII and Charles X respectively. Given that Victor Amadeus III married a Spanish princess primarily to heal relations between Turin + Madrid after the War of the Austrian Succession, there is no reason why he might not wed a French princess instead.
do you think he (victor amadeus III) might agree to marry Sophie of France? She's 8 years younger than him, but if they marry when she's 15 in 1751 it will only be a year after his otl marriage to Maria Antonia Ferdinanda of Spain
if some of Maria Theresa's children's deaths by smallpox are butterflied away (namely Charles Joseph and Maria Josepha, and perhaps the scarring of Maria Elisabeth is also butterflied as well), who might they marry? Currently all their siblings are to their otl spouses, assuming all the changing marriages in France doesn't change anything drastically (I'm not sure if it would or not, I'm not as knowledgeable on 1700s politics).
I also have for Louis XV's daughters:
Louise Elisabeth to her otl husband Philip of Parma
Anne Henriette to Charles Stuart, who is put on the throne as Charles III (I haven't figured out the how yet)
Louis to his otl wife Maria Josepha of Bavaria
Marie Adelaide to Francis Xavier of Saxony, who becomes Elector instead of his brother, who dies in infancy
Victoire to Maximilian III Joseph of Bavaria
Sophie to possibly Victor III Amadeus of Sardinia
Louise-Marie to no one, and she still becomes a Prioress as otl
I also have for Louis XV's daughters:
Louise Elisabeth to her otl husband Philip of Parma
Anne Henriette to Charles Stuart, who is put on the throne as Charles III (I haven't figured out the how yet)
Louis to his otl wife Maria Josepha of Bavaria
Marie Adelaide to Francis Xavier of Saxony, who becomes Elector instead of his brother, who dies in infancy
Victoire to Maximilian III Joseph of Bavaria
Sophie to possibly Victor III Amadeus of Sardinia
Louise-Marie to no one, and she still becomes a Prioress as otl
Wait, if Maria Theresa’s son Charles Joseph lived he would be the one to inherit Tuscany and marry Maria Luisa of Spain, with Leopold marrying Maria Beatrice of Modena and Ferdinand left without a bride. If Maria Elisabeth is not scarred she would most likely end as second wife for Louis XV. If Maria Josepha of Austria lived she would marry Ferdinand IV of Naples, with Carolina ending likely in Parma and leaving Maria Amalia free
nope. They already regarded Babette's marriage to Felipe as a "waste". The only way Henriette is going to Spain is if Fernando VI's wife kicks earlier
ISTR reading that he was supposed to follow his uncle- Charles of Lorraine- as Grand Master of the Teutonic Order and inherit the duchy of Teschen. Probably to succeed as governor of the Austrian Netherlands as well. As we know, Maria Theresia settled Teschen on Mimi's husband and the Grand Mastery of the Order went to Max, who was destined for the clergy
main way of achieving this would be to have Antonia's marriage to Friedrich Christian of Saxony or Max III of Bavaria go through. However, the prince de Carignano's gambling debts at the French court through this period (the future princesse de Lamballe basically came with no dowry because her father-in-law settled her father's gambling debts) left a bad taste about Savoy in most French mouths of the period.
thats a good point. I'm okay keeping Sophie unmarried tbh, especially since I'm planning to have two daughters of Louis XV to marry into Saxony and Bavaria so Savoy isn't really worth the trouble lol