AHC: Make Escort Carriers Prevalent Among Developing Nations During The Cold War.

[RamscoopRaider]

Propeller aircraft can launch off of escort carriers.

Some of them. Notably the F6F could not, which is why the older F4F was kept in service. The F8F could not, F7F is straight out, the F4U could but you really would not want to, I'm pretty sure the Fairey Firefly could not. The US stopped building F4F in 1945 and they didn't go on the secondhand market, so you have to deal with the Corsair and have an enormous accident rate at best

The A-1 Skyraider was also marginal off a CVE, the US planned the A2D to remedy that but only built 12, the Mauler is too big, I'm pretty sure the Wyvern and Firebrand also are. Otherwise you have WWII era Avengers and Barracudas, and Grumman AF Guardians for ASW, the Fairey Gannet is too big, the Alize probably so and the Seamew only had 26 built. So you can do ASW, but for attack you are going to have issues with the Skyraider

This of course ignores all of the land planes like the P-51, P-47, Spitfire (not Seafire but...), etc.

Basically nothing in production in 1960 will launch off a CVE that isn't a trainer, and the only postwar aircraft save the Guardian and late model Avengers, ASW and AEW only, are marginal (F4U and A-1)

You'd have to convert something substantially bigger than a WWII CVE to launch A-1's reliably with a full warload

WW2 and immediate post world war two aircraft, the type of aircraft that many developing nations in otl were using well into the 70s.

Generally put the developing nations got aircraft that could not. Carrier aircraft are more specialized and produced in smaller numbers so more expensive to operate, so pure land planes were preferred

The P-51 and P-47 were much more popular than the F4U for fighters

The A-26 and B-25 were more popular than the A-1 and much more than any previous carrier based attack aircraft

The PBY was more popular than the Avenger

 

[I lurk therefore I am]

WW2 and immediate post world war two aircraft, the type of aircraft that many developing nations in otl were using well into the 70s.

Then you pretty much have the OTL solution - Ex WW2 piston engine aircraft, then surplus US A-4 Skyhawks and S-2 Trackers operating from ex-RN 1942 Light Fleet Carriers in the 1950s.

Argentina, Brazil, Australia, Netherlands, France, Canada, India all operated ex British Light Fleet Carriers. A number more were going spare. Spain can join in (they operated ex US CVEs), Italy too (OTL Harrier carrier operator)

Have them last into the 70s and they can be converted to STVOL to lower operating costs and switch to Sea Harriers and Helicopters.

 

[Gunnarnz]

- Any that deploy there forces in UN peacekeeping missions.
- Any that are a large archipelago.
- Any that want to power project.
- Any that wish to help keep sea lanes secure from things like piracy.

Forget power projection - developing countries can't do it, and if they try they deserve everything that happens to them. My question about the remaining roles is "which of those are helicopters not suitable for"? Because I can see a role for a CVE-sized helicopter carrier in them, but I can't see why you need fixed-wing aircraft for any of them.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Which developing countries would need aircraft far enough away from their own territory to justify a carrier?

Arguably the Philippines and Indonesia could due to the large numbers of islands that make up those nations. If rebels seized an island they'd need a way to cover any attempt to take it back.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Forget power projection - developing countries can't do it, and if they try they deserve everything that happens to them. My question about the remaining roles is "which of those are helicopters not suitable for"? Because I can see a role for a CVE-sized helicopter carrier in them, but I can't see why you need fixed-wing aircraft for any of them.

Attack helicopters are expensive and maintenance heavy, with limits on range and speed.

WW2 and 1950s surplus aircraft are the more economical choice, at least until spare parts run out.

 

[Parmenion]

I could maybe see a Gulf state having like a helicopter destroyer, for maritime patrol and the like?

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

I think the "purpose" issue is really key here. With a different Cold War you might see a greater number of regional powers which see use for these small carriers. Something like a more powerful UAR, or a Communist Indonesia, or a unified Korea (Communist or Capitalist).

 

[Legofan4]

Arguably the Philippines and Indonesia could due to the large numbers of islands that make up those nations. If rebels seized an island they'd need a way to cover any attempt to take it back.

Except which islands are so isolated from the others than can't be reached with air cover from another island.

 

[JasTysoe]

British carriers were rather inefficiently designed due to their armored hangars

The armoured hanger ships formed a minority of British carriers, and it wasn't "inefficient" but a design for a particular place and time.

 

[JasTysoe]

- Any that deploy there forces in UN peacekeeping missions.
- Any that are a large archipelago.
- Any that want to power project.
- Any that wish to help keep sea lanes secure from things like piracy.

So exactly what nations fulfil those criteria?

Apparently there are 22 nations that claim to be archipelagoes; Antigua & Barbuda, The Bahamas, Cape Verde, Comoros, Dominican Republic, Fiji, Indonesia, Jamaica, Kiribati, Maldives, Marshall Islands, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Saint Vincent & the Grenadines, Sao Tome & Principe, Seychelles, Solomon Islands, Trinidad & Tobago, Tuvalu, and Vanuatu.

The Dominican Republic's flagship is a 935 ton buoy tender that was handed over from the USA at the age of 58. A country like that is not going to be able to run an escort carrier.

Fiji's navy is a bunch of survey ships and 162 ton patrol vessels, all donated.

Jamaica's navy (coast guard) was formed in 1962 from three donated US 63 ft wooden boats. They ain't gonna run an escort carrier. The other archiplego nations around there seem to be similar,

The Solomon's navy is two or three donated 162 ton patrol boats. PNG's navy is a bunch of the same patrol boats, an old 360 ton landing craft, and another landing craft. Most of the Pacific archipelago nations seem to rely on the donated 162 tonners from Australia.

Basically that leaves the PI and Indonesia. From '60 to '64 the PI flagship was an old destroyer escort. As late as 2018 the PI navy was still using WW2 destroyer escorts, seaplane tenders and 940 ton minesweepers. Such a navy is never going to find the cash for an escort carrier.

The Indonesians did have one ex-Soviet cruiser, but that's probably a lot cheaper to run than an escort carrier (I can do some rough calcs) but they don't fulfil all of the other criteria.

So the reason no developing nations got an escort carrier wasn't because they were idiots, but because they couldn't afford it and/or didn't need it.

Even a Light Fleet carrier could only be afforded by weathy nations like the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, etc. Changing from A4s to prop strike aircraft and from a light fleet to an escort carrier won't change the economics enough to allow a developing nation to run a carrier, and a few prop aircraft are not going to be a viable method of projecting power.

I love small carriers and I still struggle to squeeze them into a small but advanced and wealthy AH archipelago nation I work on.

Ironically the Thais run a light carrier and they are not an island nation.

 

[Gunnarnz]

The Indonesians did have one ex-Soviet cruiser, but that's probably a lot cheaper to run than an escort carrier (I can do some rough calcs) but they don't fulfil all of the other criteria.

They've also started getting LPH-style vessels, which make sense given their huge archipelagic nature. But with helicopters, not prop birds from the 1950s.

So the reason no developing nations got an escort carrier wasn't because they were idiots, but because they couldn't afford it and/or didn't need it.
...
Ironically the Thais run a light carrier and they are not an island nation.

The Thai carrier is basically a royal yacht - I don't think it even carries any aircraft any more, and it never carried more than a handful of Harriers at best. But yes, I agree - developing countries don't need escort carriers, and can't run them anyway.

 

[StevoJH]

Something like the Colossus and Majestic class carriers really were the sweet spot in the 1950's and 60's.

After these ships start to expire in the 1970's and early 1980's, the carrier business gets very expensive. The A4's are aging and losing relevance, your options are either brand new F-18's which will require a larger ship, Harriers which have their own limitations, or switching to helicopters.

Personally I would be very inclined to look at a pure helicopter carrier. Something like an Invincible class, but diesel powered like HMS Ocean. By running diesels you remove the need for the massive air intakes that reduced the hanger size on Invincible and you reduce running costs.

By this time (1980's) a carrier this size is not going to carry enough aircraft to do more then knock out snooping MPA's, but can carry sufficient helicopters to be a large threat to submarines and small surface vessels (Battle of Bubiyan). SAM's have also gotten good enough by this point that fitting Sea Dart or SM1 /2 would give a decent level of local air defence coverage.

Of course this still requires a country with economies of around the same size of those that historically operated the 1942 fleet carriers.

 

[jlckansas]

Countries like the Philippines and Indonesia are better off with LPD and LPH's than even a CVE. This was you can carry a Marine contingent plus some support helicopters on board for what you want to actually do with them. Whether you are fighting pirates or protecting the oil fields in Indonesia or insurgencies like the PI they would be more suited for your forces.

 

[Monk78]

Japan ? Can they be allowed to have a small force just built around A-4 and helos by 1970s ?

Norway has overseas islands too

USSR could use them for non military scientific purposes in Antarctic

 

[CV12Hornet]

Japan ? Can they be allowed to have a small force just built around A-4 and helos by 1970s ?

Tried. Buying Amatsukaze shanked their budget in the kidneys.

USSR could use them for non military scientific purposes in Antarctic

Nobody's going to give them the ships, because nobody's stupid enough to buy that they'll stay non-military.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Taiwan for convoy escort missions during a theoretical war with China?

 

[aaronupright]

Arguably the Philippines and Indonesia could due to the large numbers of islands that make up those nations. If rebels seized an island they'd need a way to cover any attempt to take it back.

Pakistan, first to support between West and East wing and later (presuming EPak is still lost) protect trade routes to Suez and Horn of Africa.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Pakistan, first to support between West and East wing and later (presuming EPak is still lost) protect trade routes to Suez and Horn of Africa.

Plus wanting to keep up with India after they buy a British Light Fleet Carrier. Being a little (alright quite a bit) economical with the truth they could claim a Commencement Bay class was almost as good as a Majestic.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Not sure if already mentioned but Adm Zumwalts Sea Control Ship concept from the 60s would fit this and indeed a number of 'Helicopter carriers' used OTL by many nations including the UK came about after this.

So which nations not already using carriers could / or needs a sea control ship?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

So which nations not already using carriers could / or needs a sea control ship?

Argentina, Chile, South Africa, Malaysia?