Oh! I sometimes forget that Miguel means Michael in Portuguese.
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II
- Thread starter FalconHonour
- Start date
I would say to ask directly to Isabella as I think who the choice was hers. Michael is not the warrior Archangel? That would be a good reason for such choice from Isabel
I read somewhere that Isabel Jr had made some kind of a prayer or vow or something like that to St. Michael thus the reason for the selection of this name
Inspired by this thread:
Carlos II, King of Spain [1665-1700] (1661-1700) m: 1679 Marie Louise d'Orléans (1662-1689)
[2] named for her mom, grandma
[3] named for his godfather, the king of Portugal, husband of his aunt, Anne Marie d'Orléans
[4] daughter of Vittorio Amadeo II, Duke of Savoy and his TTL wife, Anna Maria Luisa de Medici. Maria Elisabeth's sister, the OTL queen of Portugal goes to Paris for the duc de Bourgogne
[5] daughter of Livio Odescalchi, Duke of Bracciano and Teresa Kunigunde Sobieska (her brothers die without issue)
[6] son of Pedro II and Anne Marie d'Orléans
[7] children of TTL Louis XV (OTL duc de Bourgogne) and Maria Anna of Austria
@Math @isabella @Jan Olbracht @Nuraghe
Carlos II, King of Spain [1665-1700] (1661-1700) m: 1679 Marie Louise d'Orléans (1662-1689)
Felipe V, King of Spain (b. 1680) m: 1698 Maria Elisabeth of Austria (b.1680)
Carlos, Prince de los Asturias (1701-1705)
José, Prince de los Asturias (b.1703) m: 1719 Maria Josepha of Austria (b.1699)
Isabel Luisa (b.1705) m: 1720 Miguel I, King of Portugal [6] (b.1699)
Leopoldo (b.1707)
Ana Madalena (b.1708)
Maria Enriqueta (b.1709)
Juan [1], Governor of the Spanish Netherlands [from 1700] (b.1682) m: 1703 Adelaide of Savoy [4] (b.1691)
Anne Marie (b.1706)
Stillborn Daughter (1708)
Adélaïde Louise (b.1711) m: 1725 Louis, Dauphin de France [7] (b.1709)
Charles Amédée (b.1713) m: 1733 Maria Theresia of Austria (b.1716)
Jean Joseph (b.1716)
Stillborn Daughter (1684)
Enrique [2], Viceroy of Naples (b.1685) m: 1702 Livia Odescalchi, Duchess of Bracciano [5] (b.1692)
Enrico Clemente (1707-1709)
Giovanni Casimiro (b.1709) 1m: 1722 Anne Marie Louise de France [7] (1705-1729); 2m: 1737 Maria Anna of Austria (b.1718)
Stillborn Son (1713)
Maria Teresa Livia (b.1715)
Pedro [3] (1689-1709)
[1] named for Juan of Austria who arranged Carlos and Marie Louise's marriage[2] named for her mom, grandma
[3] named for his godfather, the king of Portugal, husband of his aunt, Anne Marie d'Orléans
[4] daughter of Vittorio Amadeo II, Duke of Savoy and his TTL wife, Anna Maria Luisa de Medici. Maria Elisabeth's sister, the OTL queen of Portugal goes to Paris for the duc de Bourgogne
[5] daughter of Livio Odescalchi, Duke of Bracciano and Teresa Kunigunde Sobieska (her brothers die without issue)
[6] son of Pedro II and Anne Marie d'Orléans
[7] children of TTL Louis XV (OTL duc de Bourgogne) and Maria Anna of Austria
@Math @isabella @Jan Olbracht @Nuraghe
IIRC, St. Michael was who the chapel royal of Lisbon Castle was dedicated to. AFAIK that was the only reason for the choice of the name
I imagine that Enrique, in addition to being viceroy in Naples, could aspire to hold the position of governor of Milan and hold the role of undisputed head of the Spanish army in Italy, my question is another, considering that he would be active in the peninsula in rather delicate years from a political and militar point of view, we will see him make some moves to control Mantua, Guastalla and perhaps one between Parma and Modena ?, so as to strengthen the Habsburg / Spanish position in Italy ?
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assuming he has the interest and "independence" (usually younger brothers were dispatched hamstrung by a raft of "secret" orders from Madrid), maybe an Italy united by the Habsburgs in the 18th century?
I wouldn't go so far as to talk about an Italy unified by the Spanish Habsburgs, but certainly a greater dynastic grip on the peninsula ( although it must be said that they would at most be border adjustments or minimal gains) which in turn can definitively revitalize / demolish the possibilities of growth of the region ( depending on the case, given that I doubt that France will be happy to see the Habsburgs strengthen themselves on its borders again, with the risk of a new and more effective encirclement, but the same can be said of the Papacy, which certainly from one on the one hand he will be happy to see his biggest supporter continue to finance projects in Rome, but on the other hand, a return of the France - Spain dualism is not exactly the most desired scenario in the curia, given that it severely limits the Pope's political freedoms, not that it was better in OTL, but at least for the first 40 years of the 18th century, Rome had enjoyed greater freedom, thanks to its rediscovered role as arbiter, something then lost with the definitive welding of the Bourbon family pact, around the period of Charles III, and it is combined with the rapprochement between Vienna and Paris, which for Rome was not exactly something to celebrate with extreme joy ( it certainly brought a fairly long-lasting period of peace that was invoked by all in Italy, but it weakened Rome's ability to balance the two enormous influences in the curia ) , given that it forced it to give in in the struggle regarding the suppression of the Jesuits )
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And in Spanish Netherlands, what do you think a Habsburg (Juan) governor can do?
It will be interesting to see, I think having two Habsburgs directly looking after Italy and Spanish Netherlands might help, I mean look OTL with Max betraying the Habsburgs in favor of the Bourbons during the War of spanish succession, I think for ITTL Felipe V having his two brothers looking after the Spanish Netherlands and Naples (and possibly Milan) will be beneficial for him.
he will certainly be more loyal than the average governor of Otl ( usually a minor prince from Italy or allies in the HRE ) but like them he will have limited resources, and will suffer full French pressure on his borders, now if he were skilled, he would try to cultivate a strong network of alliances with the various princes of the Empire ( Vienna included ) with the aim of strengthening his position in the event of a political crisis or, worse still, war, perhaps having still a seat in the Reichstag available, he could exploit it to facilitate a political of consolidation and strengthening of imperial power and of the electors ( which can guarantee them some small territorial gains ) but for the rest it will be concentrated on what happens in the Dutch Republic and across the Channel ( since unfortunately for Brussels, they are the ones who decide the fate of the region )
So directly taken from my Burgundian TL, what if Mary the Rich of Burgundy was born male?
Charles I (the Absolute) of Burgundy 1433 - 1480 {1467 - 1480} m. Catherine of France 1428 - 1446 {1440 - 1446} m. Isabella of Bourbon 1434 - 1465 {1454 - 1465} m. Margaret of York 1446 - 1503 {1469 - 1480}
Charles I (the Absolute) of Burgundy 1433 - 1480 {1467 - 1480} m. Catherine of France 1428 - 1446 {1440 - 1446} m. Isabella of Bourbon 1434 - 1465 {1454 - 1465} m. Margaret of York 1446 - 1503 {1469 - 1480}
Philip IV (the Rich) of Burgundy 1457 - 1517 {1480 - 1517} m. Anne of Champagne 1461 - 1522 {1475 - 1517}
Charles II, count of Charolais 1480 - 1488 betrothed to: Anastasia of Brandenburg 1478 - 1534 {1483 - 1488}
Margaret of Burgundy 1487 - 1521 m. Ferdinand II of Naples 1488 - 1550 {1502 - 1521}
Edward I (the Fortunate) of Burgundy 1489 - 1557 {1517 - 1557} m. Maria of Julich-Berg 1491 - 1543 {1509 - 1543 }
John II (the Fair) of England 1469 - 1522 {1486 - 1522} m. Elizabeth of York 1465 - 1519 {1486 - 1519}
Arthur, Prince of Wales 1488 - 1502 betrothed to: Katherine of Aragon 1486 - 1540
Margaret, Queen of Scots and Duchess of York 1489 - 1541 m. James IV of Scotland 1488 - 1513 {1503 - 1513}, Francis de Bourbon 1491 - 1545 {1516 - 1541}
Richard IV of England 1491 - 1455 [1522 - 1555] m. Katherine of Aragon 1486 - 1540 {1503 - 1540}
Isabella of Burgundy 1472 - 1534 betrothed to: Charles VIII of France 1470 - 1498 {1475 - 1484} m. Maximilian of Austria, King of Hungary, Holy Roman Emperor 1459 - 1519 {1489 - 1519}
Philip I of Austria 1491 - 1541 {1519 - 1541} m. Elizabeth of Denmark 1485 - 1555 {1506 - 1541}
Margaret of Austria 1505 - 1535 m. Louis I of Bohemia 1506 - 1526 {1521 - 1526}
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Just to clear up any confusion to the TL. Anne of Champagne is OTL Anne of Beaujeu or Anne of France it's just that in history they write her as Anne of Champagne due to her dowry of Champagne. Ferdinand II of Naples is OTL Ferdinand prince of Calabria. Francis de Bourbon is just a minor Burgundian councillor who I picked from the whims of wikipedia in order to give Margaret her happy ending. Louis I of Bohemia is OTL Louis II of Hungary.
Another Aviz England: Philip II is not available in 1553 (Maria Manuela is still alive?), meanwhile in Portugal: Infante Manuel is at hand:
Manuel II (1531-1566) King of Portugal, m. a) Joanna of Spain (1535-1552), b) Mary (1516-1558) Queen of England
1a) John IV (1552-1580) King of Portugal 1566, m. Elizabeth of Austria (1554-1594)
2b) Henry IX/I (1555-1607) King of England 1558, King of Portugal 1580, m. Margaret of France (1553-1615)
Manuel II (1531-1566) King of Portugal, m. a) Joanna of Spain (1535-1552), b) Mary (1516-1558) Queen of England
1a) John IV (1552-1580) King of Portugal 1566, m. Elizabeth of Austria (1554-1594)
2b) Henry IX/I (1555-1607) King of England 1558, King of Portugal 1580, m. Margaret of France (1553-1615)
your first generation "works". Except for Isabelle of Burgundy. It's supremely unlikely that Max would wait that long to marry (and given regnal numbers, she's his first wife). More likely is that he marries either Jadwiga or Zofia of Poland (or Katharina/Margarethe of Thuringia) if no Burgundian heiress. Isabella can then marry Max's son.
Then, in the second generation:
The comte de Charolais wouldn't have a regnal number, since he didn't outlive his dad, ergo, he didn't rule. And I strongly doubt that anyone was up for a match with the sister of an elector. Particularly an elector of Brandenburg. A likelier pairing would be between the comte de Charolais and Elisabeth of the Palatinate (b.1483). Her father/brother was richer and more powerful (Palatinate was the imperial vicar in his neck of the woods, the supreme judge on all matters of Frankish law within the empire, etc) than Brandenburg (who, by comparison, had nothing to offer Burgundy).
Édouard- I somehow doubt Anne de Beaujeu of all people will consenting to naming her son after the king of England who started the 100YW, but I disgress- marrying Marie of Jülich is...problematic. Originally, Emperor Friedrich III promised the succession (should her father remain childless) of Julich to his supporter, Albrecht of Saxony. However, when Marie was born, it posed a problem. But not an insurmountable one. And Marie was betrothed to future Heinrich der Fromme of Saxony. On the understanding that he would inherit both Jülich as well as the Saxon lands in the Low Countries (mostly around Holland and Friesland, acquired during Albrecht's time there). Of course, when the tumult of 1496 ensued due to Marie's father's mismanagement of the duchy, Johann II of Kleve was closer and responded faster than either the emperor or the duke of Burgundy. One of the conditions for Johann's support was that Wilhelm be "confined" (i.e. house arrest) and that government was essentially left under a regency, run by Sibylle of Brandenburg. Another was that Marie's betrothal to Heinrich be broken and that she marry Johann III of Kleve instead.
More likely, Édouard is engaged to an alt-daughter of René II of Lorraine and Philippa of Guelders. Anne arranged that marriage , and it gives the most "bang for the buck". Both Guelders and Lorraine allow female succession, so it could fold in nicely with expansionist aims in Burgundy. But ones that won't exactly result in war with either the empire or the king of France.
Given that John II would be half-Yorkist, he might need to marry Elizabeth of York to shore up his position, but he wouldn't oppose her sisters marrying outside of the realm like Henry VII did. James IV would likely marry Cecily or Anne of York. Also, his sons wouldn't share Henry's need to "strengthen" their Lancastrian claim by marrying Katherine of Aragon. The Burgundians- per a declaration issued by Charles the Bold after the Battle of Tewkesbury- were the highest/natural heirs of the house of Lancaster (through his mother, Isabel of Portugal).
Max's son would be very unlikely to be called "Philipp" TTL (Karl or Ernst are more likely), even if he does marry a Burgundian princess. Also, even if his son were named Philipp- given the preference of the Habsburgs of the period for "non-familial/unusual" names (Kunigunde, Christoph, Maximilian), it's not impossible- the boy would be "Holy Roman Emperor Philipp II" not "Philipp I of Austria". Because Max wouldn't have the struggles of OTL to have his son elected as king of the Romans (both his son and the electors were...resistant to the idea IIRC), so the succession would be a lot smoother than OTL.
I doubt it. Anne's dowry was very specific OTL. Namely, on the death of the vicomte de Thouars without male issue, Louis XI bribed his eldest daughter (Françoise d'Amboise, Dowager Duchess of Brittany) to waive her succession rights. Since her middle sister, Péronelle, was already dead and her sole surviving daughter became the duchesse d'Alençon, it left only the youngest sister, Marguerite d'Amboise, to deal with. Given that Marguerite had married to Prince de la Trémoïlle, a counsellor to both Louis XI and Charles VIII, it was easily remedied. Marriage of Marguerite's son to Gabrielle de Bourbon and all three sisters parted with their inheritance. Louis then settled further lands on Anne.
The other reason that Anne can't have Champagne as her dowry was because most of it belonged to Charles the Bold's cousin, the pro-French comte de Nevers. Per his original will (only changed shortly before his death), that was to pass to his daughter Élisabeth, duchess of Cleves.
Ergo, Cleves is likely not filled with warm and fuzzies regarding the house of Burgundy if they've been stiffed out of not only what Élisabeth was to receive as dowry but also marriage to another heiress (Marie of Jülich) thanks to them.
Inspired by the Phillip II is a girl thread.
Charles V (1500-58) m. Isabella of Portugal (1503-39) (a) Anna of Lorraine (1522-1568) b)
1a) Isabella of Austria (b.1527) m. Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1527)
2a) Maria of Austria (b.1528) m. Jean of Navarre (b.1530)
3a) Joanna of Austria (b.1535) m. Edward VI (b.1537)
4b) Margaret of Austria (b.1541) m. João Manuel of Portugal (b.1537)
5b) Anna of Austria (1544-1545)
6b) Miscarriage (1546)
7b) Carlos, Prince of Asturias (b.1549) m. Elisabeth de Valois (b.1545)
Charles V (1500-58) m. Isabella of Portugal (1503-39) (a) Anna of Lorraine (1522-1568) b)
1a) Isabella of Austria (b.1527) m. Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1527)
2a) Maria of Austria (b.1528) m. Jean of Navarre (b.1530)
3a) Joanna of Austria (b.1535) m. Edward VI (b.1537)
4b) Margaret of Austria (b.1541) m. João Manuel of Portugal (b.1537)
5b) Anna of Austria (1544-1545)
6b) Miscarriage (1546)
7b) Carlos, Prince of Asturias (b.1549) m. Elisabeth de Valois (b.1545)
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Maximilian II? Or one of his brothers?Suggestions for Isabella's husband much appreciated
Will Edward VI live to old age or die again in 1553?Inspired by the Phillip II is a girl thread.
Charles V (1500-58) m. Isabella of Portugal (1503-39) (a) Anna of Lorraine (1522-1568) b)
1a) Isabella of Austria (b.1527)
2a) Maria of Austria (b.1528) m. Jean of Navarre (b.1530)
3a) Joanna of Austria (b.1535) m. Edward VI (b.1537)
4b) Margaret of Austria (b.1541) m. João Manuel of Portugal (b.1537)
5b) Anna of Austria (1544)
6b) Miscarriage (1546)
7b) Carlos, Prince of Asturias (b.1549) m. Elisabeth de Valois (b.1545)
Suggestions for Isabella's husband much appreciated