This made me laugh out loud in front of my family 😄Zvezda 10 is going to be a near disaster as once on the way to the Moon they discover that the vodka and borscht supply was inadvertently not packed. Bravely the Cosmonauts managed to carry on (helped by a found packet of Campbell's instant soup and a half a bottle of gin) the mission and return successfully the Earth.
Randy
A Sound of Thunder: The Rise of the Soviet Superbooster
- Thread starter nixonshead
- Start date
More like build a distillary and use lunar dust to make MoonkaZvezda 10 is going to be a near disaster as once on the way to the Moon they discover that the vodka and borscht supply was inadvertently not packed. Bravely the Cosmonauts managed to carry on (helped by a found packet of Campbell's instant soup and a half a bottle of gin) the mission and return successfully the Earth.
Randy
Comparing budgets between the USSR and the US is always tricky because of the fundamental differences in the economic systems.
More broadly the Soviet's generally had worse QC making a loss of mission more likely but stereotypes aside they took human safety more seriously than NASA resulting in a safer architecture, even Proton is much better than the STS. Which makes a loss of crew less likely imho.
To concur with everyone else here, that last passage indicated to me Zvezda 10 has to be headed for disaster.
Now, my personal hope is that it's an Apollo 13-type disaster, not a Soyuz 11-type disaster. Something that can later be spun as a tale of heroic cosmonauta rather than incompetent engineers. Not what I actually think will happen, just blatant wishcasting.
This is off-topic, but is Arnaldo Tamayo Mendez around? In OTL, he was the only ever Cuban cosmonaut, and took part in Soyuz 38 circa 1980. Soyuz 38 obviously didn't happen ITTL, so was he invited on a different mission? I'm not sure they'd give an Interkosmos member anything as prestigious as Zvezda... but imagine the pride to have a Cuban on the moon before any of America's allies.
Now, my personal hope is that it's an Apollo 13-type disaster, not a Soyuz 11-type disaster. Something that can later be spun as a tale of heroic cosmonauta rather than incompetent engineers. Not what I actually think will happen, just blatant wishcasting.
This is off-topic, but is Arnaldo Tamayo Mendez around? In OTL, he was the only ever Cuban cosmonaut, and took part in Soyuz 38 circa 1980. Soyuz 38 obviously didn't happen ITTL, so was he invited on a different mission? I'm not sure they'd give an Interkosmos member anything as prestigious as Zvezda... but imagine the pride to have a Cuban on the moon before any of America's allies.
This got me thinking, does something like Interkosmos exist ITTL? And if not, will something like Interkosmos emerge? At this point, "Intercosmonauts" could only fly on either Zvezda missions, or on Zarya station. As @Veblen Fudge points out, place on Zvezda mission feels too prestigious. International mission to Zarya seems more plausible, but since Zarya 3 is primarily military station, I don't think soviet army will be happy to share it with "outsiders".
So, if something like Interkosmos happens (and I hope it will), then the foreign cosmonauts could launch to the next Zarya station, if it's designated to be for scientific purposes. Or, similarly to Space Shuttle + Spacelab, Interkosmos cosmonauts could be launched on Baikal shuttle. But that's just my speculation.
Well the planed first launch of N1-OK with Baikal is to begin by the late 1980s, so we will have to wait a while before the US loses its only lead in Space.
We were told in the latest chapter in late 1981 after the moon dust troubles experienced with Zvezda 4 that we will have to wait 7 years before N1-OK with its Blok-V-III hydrolox third stage will be ready, so 1988 or later is the year we see Baikal fly.
I was hoping that the Soviets were planing to introducing the Blok-V-III stage at a more earlier date to help the lunar base program, since a large hydrolox rocket stage would in theory be more "easier" to develop and introduce into service, than the Biakal space shuttle itself. But yeah rocket science isn't supposed to be easy...
Last edited:
Couldn't they just use a Proton for a module of the Lunar train to get the needed delta V for the upgraded lander? Or refuel it in orbit?
To do that Soviets have to force Mishin and Glushko to work together.
Another upgrade of N1 is easier for all involved.
Is the Proton under the purview of Glushko? Then use the R-7 or better yet a N11. I really find it hard to believe that they can't find a simpler solution for additional performance for a 800 kg mass increase than to build a wholly new stage that won't fly for years to come.
IMHO, in some ways, developing the LOX/LH2 Block-V-III 3rd stage for the N1 would be the simpler solution for them.
I think it's already in development for the Baikal Orbiter, so it makes perfect sense to me for them to use it for another purpose, in this instance, allowing for a larger Block SR for the larger L3M.
Having read the latest update, with Zvezda 8 being a high point, makes me wonder how things'll fare with 10? But seeing as its planned to be the last of the Blok-1 Soviet Manned Lunar Missions...
Suppose the answer will come soon enough
MASCON's (Mass Concentrations causing gravitic "rough spots" in the Lunar Gravity) had some bad effects on most initial ideas on a Lunar Orbital Space Station unworkable. (One scientist commenting that ironically "LOSS" would have been a lost cause
)They needed a lot more date to find a stable orbit around the Moon for a long term station. Which is why we're looking at Lunar halo orbits for the Gateway Station.
Randy
You put a Lunar Padme in this timeline and I'll vote for it for Turtledove of the Millenium
How extreme are those rough spots? The ISS is experiencing something similar though at a smaller scale with needed orbit readjustment once in a while, right?MASCON's (Mass Concentrations causing gravitic "rough spots" in the Lunar Gravity) had some bad effects on most initial ideas on a Lunar Orbital Space Station unworkable. (One scientist commenting that ironically "LOSS" would have been a lost cause
They needed a lot more date to find a stable orbit around the Moon for a long term station. Which is why we're looking at Lunar halo orbits for the Gateway Station.
Randy
iss has atmospheric drag, MASCONS are minor compared to the moon, each crater is different so the overall stability of the orbit is poor, Apollo 15s satilite shifted orbit constantly
the book Ascent has a Cosmonaut do a lunar landing solo (the orbital pilot is left behind due to weight) he puts the stack into orbit but the mascons make the orbit decay so he lands knowing the Soyuz return vehicle would be gone
Apollo 11 missed its target area due to gas realeased on CSM sep, and the mascons, Apollo 12 had to be tasked with a pinpoint landing to prove viability for future geology missions, specifically adjusting for mascons
Last edited:
Well... this sounds like fun to plan around. While I was aware about degradation of lunar orbits I did not expect it to happen so fast.
Apollo 12-17 were miracles of trajectory planning, basically take a radar reading from earth while the ship orbits over the near side, compare where it SHOULD be to where it IS and adjust the landing computer accordingly
Apollo 15 and 16 had sub satilites, i recommend reading up on them as one of them had super high and low orbits at one point
Apollo 11s Eagle Ascent Stage was left in lunar orbit, due to the Mascons its unknown where it impacted, a group claims it could theoretically still be in lunar orbit but its a small chance of that being the case
The most unrealistic thing about Stephen Baxters Voyage is Moonlab in low lunar orbit, unless they lucked out with one of the few "Frozen Orbits", i.e. orbits where the mascons cancel each other out. i can't remember if they reference it in the book but any visiting crew would have to boost the station routinely, likely from the CSM or possibly the MPLM (Multi Purpose Lunar Module, basically a LM ascent stage converted into a cargo carrier)
That Book Ascent by Jed Mancuso is really good, the best of the "soviet moonwalker who died but was first" genre (Second is Red moon, the one with a proton launched LOK sending a person who doesn't have a choice to his likely doom
Last edited: