TL-191: After the End

Anarcho-Occultist

Anarcho-Occultist

Something I’m wondering: what is the status of spiritualism and occultism in this timeline?

Spiritualism OTL heavily took off after the devastation of the Civil War and given there were several more extremely destructive wars on the North American continent I’m wondering if it had a significantly longer period of appeal or had more revivals.

As for occultism, a lot of late 19th century occultism ( Theosophy, the Golden Dawn, etc.) should be unaffected. Aleister Crowley was born after the POD but close enough to it he or a close analogue probably still exists, but his life probably looks different-which means that any more recent interest in occultism/witchcraft would also almost certainly be different given Crowley heavily influenced Wicca’s founder Gerald Gardner and the 1960’s counterculture figures who took an interest in the occult. Was there anything similar to the 1960’s/1990’s spikes of interest in occultism, witchcraft and/or neopaganism? If so what is the status of these subcultures today?

I’m also guessing the Freedomites were not as into esoteric shit as the Nazis were, which probably means there’s no equivalent to esoteric Nazism and Volkisch paganism probably doesn’t have the same level of appeal.
 
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David bar Elias

Anarcho-Occultist said:
Something I’m wondering: what is the status of spiritualism and occultism in this timeline?

Spiritualism OTL heavily took off after the devastation of the Civil War and given there were several more extremely destructive wars on the North American continent I’m wondering if it had a significantly longer period of appeal or had more revivals.

As for occultism, a lot of late 19th century occultism ( Theosophy, the Golden Dawn, etc.) should be unaffected. Aleister Crowley was born after the POD but close enough to it he or a close analogue probably still exists, but his life probably looks different-which means that any more recent interest in occultism/witchcraft would also almost certainly be different given Crowley heavily influenced Wicca’s founder Gerald Gardner and the 1960’s counterculture figures who took an interest in the occult. Was there anything similar to the 1960’s/1990’s spikes of interest in occultism, witchcraft and/or neopaganism? If so what is the status of these subcultures today?

I’m also guessing the Freedomites were not as into esoteric shit as the Nazis were, which probably means there’s no equivalent to esoteric Nazism and Volkisch paganism probably doesn’t have the same level of appeal.
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By 2023, neopagan beliefs are not common among the different US subcultures. During the 20th Century, there wasn’t an analogue in TTL to Wicca or the various New Age beliefs from our world.

The post-Second Great War United States had a more conformist national culture compared to the post-World War II national US culture from our world. This was not a culture that would have been welcoming to anything like Wicca or New Age beliefs from our world had they existed in TTL.

During the 1970s, there were some people in different European nations who embraced neopagan beliefs, as part of the European Nihilist cultural wave. However, the social and political backlash throughout the European Community to the European Nihilist cultural wave at the end of the 1970s and early 1980s meant that these kinds of beliefs remained ephemeral.
 

athgtq16129

Anarcho-Occultist said:
Aleister Crowley was born after the POD but close enough to it he or a close analogue probably still exists
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I mean, the whole TL-191 universe completely ignores the butterfly effect as we know it, countless of real-life people featured in it were born way past the POD in 1862 as their OTL selves, not just different people with the same names, even those born as late as 1926 such as Fidel Castro, and 1935 such as Elvis appear as their OTL selves in the story, so I see no way as to why Aleister Crowley wouldn't exist ITTL, Turtledove generally doesn't cares about the butterfly effect in his stories.

Thus, I also see no reason why people on this forum and elsewhere making post-1945 fan sequels to TL-191 should stick to the butterfly effect, if the creator of this novel series himself didn't care about it, doing so could hinder the "feel" of it looking like a sequel that uses the style and tropes of the original novels.
 
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David bar Elias

athgtq16129 said:
I mean, the whole TL-191 universe completely ignores the butterfly effect as we know it, countless of real-life people featured in it were born way past the POD in 1862 as their OTL selves, not just different people with the same names, even those born as late as 1926 such as Fidel Castro, and 1935 such as Elvis appear as their OTL selves in the story, so I see no way as to why Aleister Crowley wouldn't exist ITTL, Turtledove generally doesn't cares about the butterfly effect in his stories.

Thus, I also see no reason why people on this forum and elsewhere making post-1945 fan sequels to TL-191 should stick to the butterfly effect, if the creator of this novel series himself didn't care about it, doing so could hinder the "feel" of it looking like a sequel that uses the style and tropes of the original novels.
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I used the butterfly effect in TTL because it would have strained credibility if after the end of the Second Great War the same people were in the same roles and did almost the exact same things as their counterparts from our world, as though nothing had changed from the history of OTL following the original POD in 1862.

One of the things I’ve enjoyed about working on this ATL is imagining just how different a world like TL-191 would be compared to OTL, though it’s only one interpretation on how things could have proceeded in TTL following the end of the series.
 

David bar Elias

Lochnessmoonster said:
How did the life of George Bernard Shaw go ITTL?
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George Bernard Shaw was born before the POD of the TL-191 series. His early life was similar to his counterpart in our world, and he gained a reputation as a respected playwright in London before the beginning of the First Great War. One difference from OTL is that Shaw never wrote Pygmalion.

The First Great War and the immediate postwar economic problems in the United Kingdom proved ruinous for the London theatre world. Shaw also felt increasingly unwelcome in British society because of his Irish background. In 1921, Shaw left London for Dublin.

Shaw remained in Ireland during the Interwar years, but found himself outside the emerging centers of culture in the newly independent nation. His plays and published novels gradually took on caustic and nihilistic views on subjects as different as nationalism or economic inequality. Shaw advocated for a socialist economic program in Ireland, but never gained political influence.

Shaw was living in Dublin at the outbreak of the Second Great War in 1941. After the British invasion and conquest of Ireland early in the war, Shaw was among the first wave of prominent cultural and political figures who were arrested by the authorities.

It was not until 1944, after the end of British rule in Ireland and the end of the Second Great War, that it was revealed that Shaw had been murdered while in British custody at a prison camp in County Sligo.
 
Judge Dredd34

Judge Dredd34

What happened to the Basque conflict in this timeline? Most of Catalon contemporary nationalism was built on linguistic belief, atrocities committed during the Spanish Civil war that weren’t apologised for, and perceived cultural differences than their Castilian counterparts. On the map it says it’s together, so was the Spanish Civil war in this timeline less brutal/atrocious towards them or did something else happen?
 

David bar Elias

Judge Dredd34 said:
What happened to the Basque conflict in this timeline? Most of Catalon contemporary nationalism was built on linguistic belief, atrocities committed during the Spanish Civil war that weren’t apologised for, and perceived cultural differences than their Castilian counterparts. On the map it says it’s together, so was the Spanish Civil war in this timeline less brutal/atrocious towards them or did something else happen?
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The conflict involving Basque separatists from our world didn’t happen in TTL. The constitution and government of the Spanish Confederation that followed the fall of the military regime in the 1970s allowed for a wide degree of autonomy for different regions of Spain, including for education and in the cultural sphere.
 

floyd22

What happened to Hideki Tojo, the guy who headed the Imperial Japanese Government in our timeline, in your story?

I am also curious as to what might have become of Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, one of the Japanese Naval planners behind the Pearl Harbour attacks in our universe.
 

Lalli

By 2024 has Russia or Orthodox Church adopted Gregorian Calendar? I would suppose that Russia has since it is now republic but how Orthodox Church, speciality Russian OC?
 

David bar Elias

Lalli said:
By 2024 has Russia or Orthodox Church adopted Gregorian Calendar? I would suppose that Russia has since it is now republic but how Orthodox Church, speciality Russian OC?
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By 2024, the Russian Republic uses the Gregorian calendar. The Russian Orthodox Church uses the Julian calendar.
 

David bar Elias

floyd22 said:
What happened to Hideki Tojo, the guy who headed the Imperial Japanese Government in our timeline, in your story?

I am also curious as to what might have become of Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, one of the Japanese Naval planners behind the Pearl Harbour attacks in our universe.
Click to expand...

The analogue in TTL to Hideki Tojo, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date compared to our world. His military career in the Imperial Japanese Army was analogous to OTL, and by the late 1930s, he became Chief of Staff of the Kwantung Army in the Japanese client state of Manchukuo. Unlike in our world, Tojo did not rise to become the head of the Japanese civilian government. Tojo became the commanding officer of the Kwantung Army in 1940, and led military operations in China during the Second Great War. In 1944, Tojo led the Kwantung Army during the Japanese invasion of Siberia, after the Japanese Empire abruptly ended its alliance with the Entente powers. Tojo was killed in a Russian attack while he was inspecting Kwantung Army frontline positions in Amur Oblast in 1945.

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The analogue in TTL to Isoroku Yamamoto, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date compared to our world. Unlike in OTL, Yamamoto attended the Imperial Japanese Army Academy. During the early 20th Century, Yamamoto steadily rose to positions of command in Japanese armies stationed in the Japanese-ruled Philippines. During the Second Great War, Yamamoto oversaw the defense of the Philippines. In 1944, Yamamoto led an expeditionary force comprised of Imperial Japanese Forces from the Philippines during the Japanese conquest of Malaysia, Singapore, and Burma, after the Japanese Empire turned against the Entente powers. Yamamoto died of dysentery while in Burma in 1944.
 
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