An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[Evilprodigy]

Interestingly enough, today Egypt is the leading potato-cultivalting country in Africa and one of the top potato exporters globally. In OTL, potato was introduced in Egypt in the 1800's . Maybe it can be introduced earlier in TTL?

Information on the potato industry in ANY region

The potato was introduced to Egypt during the 1800s, and large scale cultivation began during the First World War when British colonial officials encouraged its production to feed their troops. After the war, however, expansion of potato growing was hampered by the poor quality of imported seed...

www.potatopro.com

You have to keep in mind that the fact they make potatoes doesn't really matter. What does matter is how much the potato impacted their agriculture by increasing the total amount of calories produced in the country.

The potato is a superfood, so its introduction is always somewhat impactful on existing farmland. But where it really shines is in its ability to be grown in areas outside of the cultivation of traditional old world crops. Acidic soils, thin soils, all places where wheat could normally not grow potato can thrive. One of the main limiting factors in agricultural production is that the amount of land you can farm his limited. Humans have attempted to overcome that limitation for millennia. Irrigation of dry farmland, the clearing of forest, the draining of swamp, the introduction of new crops, and the utilisation of fertilizer all are designed to increase arable acreage. The potato was one of the biggest single events that increased potential acreage of human agriculture. Egypt however did not have peripheral soil in large quantities which benefited from the introduction of the potato. instead of turning empty land into productive farmland, they instead turn already productive farmland into marginally more productive farmland. The total caloric production of Egyptian farms has thus not increased as significantly as a country whose acreage could double if they started growing the potato. Even if the land is less productive it's still a greater impact. The difference between land producing 0 calories and producing 100 calories, is still greater than it being 80 calories and increasing that to 120.

 

[Bronze]

1. This is 1640. A state spending 80% of its budget on the military or military related items... is the way things are.

It certainly isn't the way Rhomania is. I believe Rhomania's tax receipts amount to about 24 million hyperpyra a year now. 80% of that is 19.2 million hyperpyra, of which around 9 million goes to the existing army and 4 million to the existing navy, for a total of 13 million, or about 55% of 24 million.
Let's say, for the Mosul solution, the Romans raise one more thematic army and massively increase the navy, which in the extreme case would be 1 million hyperpyra for the former and 2 million for the latter. This would add up to 16 million, or about 67%. Tack on another million for building fortresses and you're at 17 million, or around 73.5%, and one million short of 18 million (80%).

Contrast with the state of affairs in 1630, whem the budget was 18 million and army+navy expenditure was 13 million, or 72%, about the same percentage as projected expenditure with the Mosul solution, and definitely smaller than projected expenditure with the Baghdad solution.

Where did the rest of the money go? To infrastructure projects like roads, canals, universities, other miscellaneus infrastructure projects that Latin Europe barely cares about, and paying Rhomania's large civil service.

So no, I don't think Rhomania can sustain 80+% military expenditure for long, because then its infrastructure might start deteriorating.

 

[Bronze]

2. No matter what may happen a generation or two down the line crushing Persian now, thoroughly still looks like a good idea to me. Create and independent Iraq under Iskander or someone else really, let the Georgians and Russians annex whatever they can, Persia will still be hostile anyway. With some luck by the time Persian armies are charging across the Zagros, Turkish Iraq will have a separate identity from Persia proper or they will be fighting each other over who conquers whom.

With some luck.
You don't say.
Luck is a terrible thing to count on. Firstly, I don't think Khazaria (which is likely what you meant by Russia) is in any position or interest to take any part of Persia beyond the lower Syr Darya, and even then it would be a chancy prospect.
Secondly, everyone in the Ottoman Empire knows the prestige of the Ottomans, and prestige, both of the imperial dynasty and of the imperial idea, won't die quickly.
Thirdly, Persia may well eventually be strong enough to eat rump Mesopotamia anyways. Other kingdoms (especially the Achaemenids and the Parthians) started in Persia to successfully eat Mesopotamia, the reverse of what the Ottomans did in the beginning.

 

[Nurhaci]

There are only one thing important in Mesopotamia Oil !

 

[Bronze]

There are only one thing important in Mesopotamia Oil !

Oil is not important now. Besides, as I understand, it will take equipment beyond current technological capability to even get to the oil, much less extract it.
Also, the largest oil deposits happen to be in southern Mesopotamia, a region that Rhomania simply cannot hold for a significant length of time currently.

 

[Bronze]

Here's a map.

Spoiler: Oil Map

The vast majority of the Middle East's potential oil reserves are currently under Ottoman control. Perhaps that will change, especially once someone finds out just how much oil there is here, but right now, it's both difficult to reach and not very useful.

 

[Bronze]

On thr other hand...

Spoiler: Map

Rhomania seems to be in possession of far greater future coal reserves than the Ottomans, either in Mesopotamia or Persia.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

On thr other hand...

Spoiler: Map

View attachment 580313

Rhomania seems to be in possession of far greater future coal reserves than the Ottomans, either in Mesopotamia or Persia.

Not to mention that if current geopolitical trends hold Rhomania will have access to all that Siberian coal once it is discovered.

 

[Imperial Inkstand-filler]

Roman (?) Mesopotamia Pt. 2:

I'm really glad you've broken it down like this - I tend to agree that Mesopotamia would be a dangerous overreach for the Romans, and besides, would go too far (for me, at least) in the direction of an all-out Roman wank. Besides, the Turco-Persian Ottomans are one of my favorite nations in the world of AAOM (right there with the Euro-indigenous Mexicans) and I want to see them maintain parity with the Romans, not lose a huge chunk of their heartland.

Honestly, given all the hype he's been getting, I'd love it if Odysseus pulls a Gustav Adolphus and dies on the field before he's 40.

 

[Frame]

Perhaps the Romans can let the Ottomans have southern mesopotamia but stoke the fires of Shia separatism so whenever they do eventually go to war again they can rely on a Shia revolt to help weaken the Ottoman army being sent twords Rhomania. Kind of a reverse of how the Persians capitalised on monophysite and Jewish discontent in the 600s
They could create an independent shia state to give them a taste of freedom for a few decades before the Ottomans inevitably swallow it up again and crack down on their religious freedom creating a large amount of anger that before didn't exist to such an extent

 

[Bronze]

But Iskandar is a smart cookie. What if he encourages religious tolerance, and buys off conservative Sunni clerics with the looming threat that is Rhomania and the carrot that potentially returning the Black Stone could be?

 

[Duke of Orlando]

Here's a little something I made just now.

Spoiler: Map

View attachment 580277

Purple - current Roman frontier
Dark grey - current Georgian frontier
Brown - current Ottoman frontier

Light grey - my projected Georgian gains. Includes the entirety of the disputed trans-Aras region, plus a few small odds and ends, because why not.
Red - my projection of the Mosul line.
Orange - @Duke of Orlando's line, with Tikrit.
Blue - @Βοανηργές's Baghdad line.
Green - the rough extent of geographical Mesopotamia.

Thank you for the awesome map @Bronze that is very close to what I’m saying and visuals are always appreciated. One thing I will add is although it might not look great on the Map, the Romans likely have the Goal of at the very least grabbing Khoy in what you currently give to Georgia. In OTL it had a large Armenian population until the 1800’s and I don’t remember anything happening to them in TTL. It’s part of why of why i mentioned the Romans swinging up to grab Mahabad and going north to lake Urmia. Then you follow something similar to the current West Azerbaijan province border in modern Iran. With the Georgians protecting that flank it should be a relatively stable area with the additional land as it is only a relatively small increase to the Ottoman border.

 

[Bronze]

Thank you for the awesome map @Bronze that is very close to what I’m saying and visuals are always appreciated. One thing I will add is although it might not look great on the Map, the Romans likely have the Goal of at the very least grabbing Khoy in what you currently give to Georgia. In OTL it had a large Armenian population until the 1800’s and I don’t remember anything happening to them in TTL. It’s part of why of why i mentioned the Romans swinging up to grab Mahabad and going north to lake Urmia. Then you follow something similar to the current West Azerbaijan province border in modern Iran. With the Georgians protecting that flank it should be a relatively stable area with the additional land as it is only a relatively small increase to the Ottoman border.

Thr problem is that when the Georgians first swiped the trans-Aras, they were able to take all the land between Lake Van and the Caspian, including Khoy.

Even so, we must see what the Georgian reaction to the Roman attack on the Ottomans will be. If Georgia proves herself an important part of the attack (which is what I think is likely), they'll probably retain Khoy along with the other stuff.
But if, for some reason, the Georgians only provide token forces to help out, then Rhomania could consider taking the lands between Van and Urmia for itself, leaving Georgia with the lands between Lake Urmia and the Caspian.

Also, why is the Armenian population supposed to be relevant to whether it should go to Rhomania or to Georgia? As I understand it, a quarter of the land of Armenia, including Mount Ararat itself, is in Georgia. It too has a significant Armenian minority.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

Thr problem is that when the Georgians first swiped the trans-Aras, they were able to take all the land between Lake Van and the Caspian, including Khoy.

Even so, we must see what the Georgian reaction to the Roman attack on the Ottomans will be. If Georgia proves herself an important part of the attack (which is what I think is likely), they'll probably retain Khoy along with the other stuff.
But if, for some reason, the Georgians only provide token forces to help out, then Rhomania could consider taking the lands between Van and Urmia for itself, leaving Georgia with the lands between Lake Urmia and the Caspian.

Also, why is the Armenian population supposed to be relevant to whether it should go to Rhomania or to Georgia? As I understand it, a quarter of the land of Armenia, including Mount Ararat itself, is in Georgia. It too has a significant Armenian minority.

My main argument for the Romans being eager for an Armenian and/or Christian population such as in Khoy, Urmia, and in other nearby areas isn’t so much based in pan Armenianism as it is practically. If we’re focusing on Stability Instead of just domination this Mesopotamian province needs as many Christians as it can get. The more enthusiastic the better, hence why I mentioned a southern border at Tikrit to make Syriacs happy. Using the area between lakes Van and Urmia as a loyal manpower base for any Mesopotamian tagmata makes sense to me at least. It can be a smaller version of coastal Syria on that it would be incredibly loyal and easy to rush troops to from Armenia proper to reinforce it.

Would Georgia like this area as well for these same reasons? Definitely. But Rome is bigger and more powerful and can like Convince the Georgians to give it up for some concessions of their own. Maybe assistance to take some cities further east and a promise to pay for their garrisons for a set period. Maybe some trade concessions. Maybe the Georgians want promises for help in a future war in the north.

At this point I’m not suggesting Rome take additional land for more lands sake. Rather I’m focusing on what I think would help make a Mesopotamian province more stable in the long run.

 

[Bronze]

My main argument for the Romans being eager for an Armenian and/or Christian population such as in Khoy, Urmia, and in other nearby areas isn’t so much based in pan Armenianism as it is practically. If we’re focusing on Stability Instead of just domination this Mesopotamian province needs as many Christians as it can get. The more enthusiastic the better, hence why I mentioned a southern border at Tikrit to make Syrians happy. Using the area between lakes Van and Urmia as a loyal manpower base for any Mesopotamian tagmata makes sense to me at least. It can be a smaller version of coastal Syria on that it would be incredibly loyal and easy to rush troops to from Armenia proper to reinforce it.

Would Georgia like this area as well for these same reasons? Definitely. But Rome is bigger and more powerful and can like Convince the Georgians to give it up for some concessions of their own. Maybe assistance to take some cities further east and a promise to pay for their garrisons for a set period. Maybe some trade concessions. Maybe the Georgians want promises for help in a future war in the north.

At this point I’m not suggesting Rome take additional land for more lands sake. Rather I’m focusing on what I think would help make a Mesopotamian province more stable in the long run.

Well and good, but now really isn't the time for Rhomania to make more commitments. They need the money to rebuild the lands devastated by the wars, both in the west and in the east. I foresee that realistically, the Mesopotamian campaign would only last for as long as the plunder keeps flowing to the White House.

Don't want to give the Megas Sakellarios a stroke after all.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

Well and good, but now really isn't the time for Rhomania to make more commitments. They need the money to rebuild the lands devastated by the wars, both in the west and in the east. I foresee that realistically, the Mesopotamian campaign would only last for as long as the plunder keeps flowing to the White House.

Don't want to give the Megas Sakellarios a stroke after all.

“Let’s build a wall around Mosul and make the Ottomans pay for it!”- the Megas Sakellarios after a few too many

Jokes aside I see your point. It makes sense to me for the Romans to try and come to an agreement with the Georgians for that strip of land though. Maybe a one time payment from the Mesopotamian loot? I don’t know. I just think a Mesopotamian province is stronger using that as a solidly loyal area. I won’t be heartbroken if the Georgians keep it at the end of the day. I just am not sure where else Roman Mesopotamia gets that solidly loyal power base from. Even if it’s only a few thousand men in the Tagmata it’s a few thousand you have no reason to doubt the loyalty of.

 

[Frame]

Have neptune and uranus been discovered yet? If so what are their names? It would be interesting if they named a planet Christos or something after Christ or perhaps named after a saint or emperor

 

[dakkafex]

Have neptune and uranus been discovered yet? If so what are their names? It would be interesting if they named a planet Christos or something after Christ or perhaps named after a saint or emperor

Probably not, I don't think there's the necessary groundwork laid, either with regard to physics or instrumentation. While Uranus had been seen occasionally and listed as a star since classical times, without precise parallax measurements (because its orbit takes 84 years it moves very slowly across the sky on human timescales) and knowledge of the laws of orbital mechanics to make sense of those measurements, there's not really any way to figure out that it's actually another planet and not a comet or star, which is why it took until the 1780s OTL for it to be recognized as such. Doubly so for Neptune, which was deduced from even more precise measurement of unexplained orbital anomalies in the orbit of Uranus, and required even more specialized mathematics to predict what would be causing those anomalies. This isn't to say that these discoveries might not happen earlier relative to OTL, but there's a reason why they happened when they did beyond someone happening to point their telescope at the right part of the sky at the right time one night.

 

[Vince]

But Iskandar is a smart cookie. What if he encourages religious tolerance, and buys off conservative Sunni clerics with the looming threat that is Rhomania and the carrot that potentially returning the Black Stone could be?

Isn't the Stone with the Maranids? I don't how you can convince them to give up the most treasured relic of your religion especially when they're too far away to force them to hand it over.

 

[Bronze]

Isn't the Stone with the Maranids? I don't how you can convince them to give up the most treasured relic of your religion especially when they're too far away to force them to hand it over.

Now, I didn't say that Iskandar would go to the trouble of actually getting the Stone back, did I? All he has to do is convince the clerics that he will, and after his plans are accomplished...
Long Knives aren't copyrighted by the Romans, after all.