An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
I’m both pissed off and mildly impressed just how far they took the concept of Seasonal Rot.
Can anyone tell me what the situation is in Bulgaria? I assume bulgarians are being absorbed fairly quickly because of a heavy greek presence in the major cities.
Evilprodigy
Donor
B444 posted a while ago that the Bulgarian culture is basically gone, surviving only in isolated pockets in inaccessible areas. IIRC he didn't really like it but he realized it was what would make the most logical sense given how long the Bulgarians have been within the Roman Empire for and the poor strength of their demographics since 1204.
Stark: Leo Kalomeros will be involved in the upcoming shenanigans, although just as a young and promising officer with the prospects of a significant career ahead for him…
ImperatorAlexander: Glad you enjoyed it. I’m thinking Demetrios the Wise(Ass).
The Sideroi are descended via Timur II to the Samarkand Timurids, not the Tieh.
Demetrios isn’t up to Herakleios level. To just make up a number I’m going to say a net worth of a million hyperpyra, with income from his salary, book sales, and some profitable investments. So mid-to-upper range dynatoi.
JohnSmith: Yeah, Andrea=Theodora. It was originally Andrea but I decided to change it to make things less confusing partway through writing this. I’d thought I’d gotten all the name-changes, obviously not. Odysseus and Athena were outside during the chat. For security purposes only Jahzara was admitted into the Strategos’ office.
The White Tower probably sells monems; either tacos or burritos are possibly going to show up in the near future. And this is why I shouldn’t write updates while hungry.
The eldest bastard is all of seven and is the son of a washerwoman now married to the Kephale of Gallipoli. Maria’s eldest, Alexandros of Baghdad, is six. Odysseus is seventeen and Athena is fourteen (and just imagine the claims any child of Alexandros Drakos and Athena will have).
RogueTraderEnthusiast: The House of Timur sits on the throne of Rhomania, the House of Komnenos sets upon the throne of Persia, and the House of Laskaris (Khazaria) is the premier power on the steppe. The Sideroi don’t have much of a reputation on the steppes; they’ve been out of the game too long. The name might give them some clout, but only if they did something that would make the steppe sit up and take notice regardless of their ancestry.
Trust me, the Romans find the whole ‘two-front war’ thing much more annoying than you, but given their geographical position it’s a high-probability event. Even Liutprand of Cremona back in the 10th century pointed out that their strategic position was less than ideal.
Earl Marshal: In the realm of public opinion, Demetrios Sideros is in a much better position than Elizabeth by virtue of being a Roman and Orthodox. Revolting against him in the name of a bastard (and not even the eldest) that’s six years old (Alexandros of Baghdad) isn’t the best-selling proposition.
Aristomenes: Theodor is not amused…
Andry2806: And while drinking too!
Arrix85: Yes on Hektor. I admit I completely forgot that Zoe even existed, but given the distance between them geographically I’m going to assume the relationship is also distant.
Regarding German feasibility and goals, the next update covers the international reaction of the narrative update (which happened mostly within six hours, with the end set two weeks later, so Demetrios crowned before most of Europe even knew there was a job opening).
Duke of Nova Scotia: I can’t comment on the culinary aspects. I just liked the idea of the Romans having pizza delivery in the 1600s and shrimp and salami sounded good.
MarshalofMontival: The Triunes play a very important role in the next update.
Frustrated Progressive: Thank you.
InMediasRes: He is; he’s had a crush on her ever since he developed an interest in girls. I do want to have at least one narrative scene to flesh her out as a character-she’s been more of a totem that affects others rather than an agent in her own right. Although since she was never lawfully wed to Andreas III I don’t know of any legal barriers.
Kimo: Yeah, nobody much cares for Elizabeth.
The territories under the direct control of the Wittelsbachs (Bavaria, Saxony, Brandenburg, and Schleswig-Holstein plus Austria to a lesser extent because it’s a new addition) are pretty well centralized, comparable to Triune administration. Plus the rest of the HRE is by nature more loosely controlled. The various princes will usually do what they’re told but they still need to be politely asked, not ordered like some Roman Kephale. Also their economic institutions (banks, stock markets) are weaker than either the Roman Empire or the Triple Monarchy.
If Elizabeth had been able to be regent for a legitimate son she had with Andreas III, her position probably would’ve been pretty secure especially when paired with Demetrios’ lack of ambition. Married to Alexandros she might’ve been tolerable. By herself though, not a chance.
Babyrage: Theodor doesn’t see it that way though. From his perspective his God-given rights of inheritance have been usurped. He is descended from the eldest daughter of Helena I, Demetrios from the second. And monarchs of this time period do not give up dynastic rights lightly.
I picture Demetrios as a mid-to-upper level dynatos. The big dynatoi are all richer. He and his father were never very close so revenge against the Ottomans for his father’s death isn’t that important to him.
Lascaris: Precisely. Theodor knows King’s Harbor must be wooed, and wooed successfully.
Derekc2: Theodor knows he won’t be welcome with open arms, but if he promises to respect Orthodoxy (he is not so stupid to think that he can force Catholicism down the Romans’ throats, at least at the start) he figures they might not side against him. And Demetrios did usurp his God-given right of inheritance; no monarch can let that passed unchallenged.
Charcolt: I wanted the War of the Roman Succession to be different than the War of the Five Emperors or the Time of Troubles where you have different Romans vying for the throne. This was a good way to both keep the ominous title but also be different as well.
Jkarr: No civil war; we’re too busy being rude to each other for that sort of thing.
Altwere: They’re annoying like that…
Note on Greek Fire: It remains lost, although I’m skeptical of its usefulness in the gunpowder age. The flamethrower the Byzantines used has a massively shorter range than a cannon so the opponent could easily shoot them full of holes before they could engage. And I doubt the stuff would react very kindly if their storage tank was hit by a cannonball.
That said, if you could make a hollow cannonball, fill it up with Greek fire, and set a delayed action fuse so that it explodes in midflight and ignites the fluid, that would solve the range issue. There’d still be the need to protect the tank from counter-fire…makes notes…
Prometherion92: What EvilProdigy said. The Roman conquest and pacification wiped out a big chunk of the Bulgarians either through outright slaughter or deportation. The Black Sea coast and anything south of the Haemus mountains are Greek and north of that the cities and elites are all Hellenized. What’s left is a rural peasant culture, still vibrant in its own way but anyone with ambition or education is ‘going Greek’.
ImperatorAlexander: Glad you enjoyed it. I’m thinking Demetrios the Wise(Ass).
The Sideroi are descended via Timur II to the Samarkand Timurids, not the Tieh.
Demetrios isn’t up to Herakleios level. To just make up a number I’m going to say a net worth of a million hyperpyra, with income from his salary, book sales, and some profitable investments. So mid-to-upper range dynatoi.
JohnSmith: Yeah, Andrea=Theodora. It was originally Andrea but I decided to change it to make things less confusing partway through writing this. I’d thought I’d gotten all the name-changes, obviously not. Odysseus and Athena were outside during the chat. For security purposes only Jahzara was admitted into the Strategos’ office.
The White Tower probably sells monems; either tacos or burritos are possibly going to show up in the near future. And this is why I shouldn’t write updates while hungry.
The eldest bastard is all of seven and is the son of a washerwoman now married to the Kephale of Gallipoli. Maria’s eldest, Alexandros of Baghdad, is six. Odysseus is seventeen and Athena is fourteen (and just imagine the claims any child of Alexandros Drakos and Athena will have).
RogueTraderEnthusiast: The House of Timur sits on the throne of Rhomania, the House of Komnenos sets upon the throne of Persia, and the House of Laskaris (Khazaria) is the premier power on the steppe. The Sideroi don’t have much of a reputation on the steppes; they’ve been out of the game too long. The name might give them some clout, but only if they did something that would make the steppe sit up and take notice regardless of their ancestry.
Trust me, the Romans find the whole ‘two-front war’ thing much more annoying than you, but given their geographical position it’s a high-probability event. Even Liutprand of Cremona back in the 10th century pointed out that their strategic position was less than ideal.
Earl Marshal: In the realm of public opinion, Demetrios Sideros is in a much better position than Elizabeth by virtue of being a Roman and Orthodox. Revolting against him in the name of a bastard (and not even the eldest) that’s six years old (Alexandros of Baghdad) isn’t the best-selling proposition.
Aristomenes: Theodor is not amused…
Andry2806: And while drinking too!
Arrix85: Yes on Hektor. I admit I completely forgot that Zoe even existed, but given the distance between them geographically I’m going to assume the relationship is also distant.
Regarding German feasibility and goals, the next update covers the international reaction of the narrative update (which happened mostly within six hours, with the end set two weeks later, so Demetrios crowned before most of Europe even knew there was a job opening).
Duke of Nova Scotia: I can’t comment on the culinary aspects. I just liked the idea of the Romans having pizza delivery in the 1600s and shrimp and salami sounded good.
MarshalofMontival: The Triunes play a very important role in the next update.
Frustrated Progressive: Thank you.
InMediasRes: He is; he’s had a crush on her ever since he developed an interest in girls. I do want to have at least one narrative scene to flesh her out as a character-she’s been more of a totem that affects others rather than an agent in her own right. Although since she was never lawfully wed to Andreas III I don’t know of any legal barriers.
Kimo: Yeah, nobody much cares for Elizabeth.
The territories under the direct control of the Wittelsbachs (Bavaria, Saxony, Brandenburg, and Schleswig-Holstein plus Austria to a lesser extent because it’s a new addition) are pretty well centralized, comparable to Triune administration. Plus the rest of the HRE is by nature more loosely controlled. The various princes will usually do what they’re told but they still need to be politely asked, not ordered like some Roman Kephale. Also their economic institutions (banks, stock markets) are weaker than either the Roman Empire or the Triple Monarchy.
If Elizabeth had been able to be regent for a legitimate son she had with Andreas III, her position probably would’ve been pretty secure especially when paired with Demetrios’ lack of ambition. Married to Alexandros she might’ve been tolerable. By herself though, not a chance.
Babyrage: Theodor doesn’t see it that way though. From his perspective his God-given rights of inheritance have been usurped. He is descended from the eldest daughter of Helena I, Demetrios from the second. And monarchs of this time period do not give up dynastic rights lightly.
I picture Demetrios as a mid-to-upper level dynatos. The big dynatoi are all richer. He and his father were never very close so revenge against the Ottomans for his father’s death isn’t that important to him.
Lascaris: Precisely. Theodor knows King’s Harbor must be wooed, and wooed successfully.
Derekc2: Theodor knows he won’t be welcome with open arms, but if he promises to respect Orthodoxy (he is not so stupid to think that he can force Catholicism down the Romans’ throats, at least at the start) he figures they might not side against him. And Demetrios did usurp his God-given right of inheritance; no monarch can let that passed unchallenged.
Charcolt: I wanted the War of the Roman Succession to be different than the War of the Five Emperors or the Time of Troubles where you have different Romans vying for the throne. This was a good way to both keep the ominous title but also be different as well.
Jkarr: No civil war; we’re too busy being rude to each other for that sort of thing.
Altwere: They’re annoying like that…
Note on Greek Fire: It remains lost, although I’m skeptical of its usefulness in the gunpowder age. The flamethrower the Byzantines used has a massively shorter range than a cannon so the opponent could easily shoot them full of holes before they could engage. And I doubt the stuff would react very kindly if their storage tank was hit by a cannonball.
That said, if you could make a hollow cannonball, fill it up with Greek fire, and set a delayed action fuse so that it explodes in midflight and ignites the fluid, that would solve the range issue. There’d still be the need to protect the tank from counter-fire…makes notes…
Prometherion92: What EvilProdigy said. The Roman conquest and pacification wiped out a big chunk of the Bulgarians either through outright slaughter or deportation. The Black Sea coast and anything south of the Haemus mountains are Greek and north of that the cities and elites are all Hellenized. What’s left is a rural peasant culture, still vibrant in its own way but anyone with ambition or education is ‘going Greek’.
So my guess is correct, the Holy Roman Emperor is going for this because they view this as an act against god, fully ignorant and unwilling to learn that Romans don't give any shits about his "rights" and are fully prepped for fighting against the Latins, not (just) because they're catholic but because by this time they're far enough along on the development of the bourgeois nation state, with the combination of previous invasions by Western Europe on the ERE, that they just hate Latins in general and want to fucking kill them.
The HRE will likely be able to gain some good will with the argument that Demetrios is an unlawful usurper amongst his fellow Latin Europe monarchs which will allow him to invade the ERE without a knife to his back which will make this war far more intense.
Edit: Also he may know they won't accept him with open arms but he obviously unwilling to acknowledge that the Rhomans really fucking hate him and all Latins and will instead of responding with apathy will respond with "fucking die you barbarian scum!".
I can't help but wonder how the Latin monarchs and nobility will react when they realize how little even the aristocracy of the Rhoman Empire give a shit about his divine right and how much more they care about him being a western barbarian.
The HRE will likely be able to gain some good will with the argument that Demetrios is an unlawful usurper amongst his fellow Latin Europe monarchs which will allow him to invade the ERE without a knife to his back which will make this war far more intense.
Edit: Also he may know they won't accept him with open arms but he obviously unwilling to acknowledge that the Rhomans really fucking hate him and all Latins and will instead of responding with apathy will respond with "fucking die you barbarian scum!".
I can't help but wonder how the Latin monarchs and nobility will react when they realize how little even the aristocracy of the Rhoman Empire give a shit about his divine right and how much more they care about him being a western barbarian.
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I'm sure it was mentioned earlier, but how much contact is there between Ottoman Persia and Latinized Europe at this point? I'm sure that it definitely would have occurred to the rulers in both the HRE and in Persia that improving diplomatic relations in the face of a common enemy would help them both at some point. The OTL Safavids tried numerous such diplomatic missions to the Christianized West to oppose the Ottomans so has something similar already occurred?
Speaking of Hellenization, how integrated have other areas of the Empire become?
From what I remember the Armenians are like Scotland in the UK (Though not a Kingdom), and have good representation in government, have they hellenized some to become like a subculture of Greek Rhoman?
The Levant area has had tons of rebellions in the past hundreds of years. Wealthy city parts are probably Greek by now.
Thinking of it now freeing Serbia as a Despotate was probably a great decision. Serbs are a resilient lot, they got BTFO'd many times otl they're still somehow around. The whole dynamic with their new state is completely different than before. Now they have memory of catholic oppression, and owe their independence to the Rhomans. If the Germans come knocking I expect they'll fight harder than anyone to keep the hated Latins out.
From what I remember the Armenians are like Scotland in the UK (Though not a Kingdom), and have good representation in government, have they hellenized some to become like a subculture of Greek Rhoman?
The Levant area has had tons of rebellions in the past hundreds of years. Wealthy city parts are probably Greek by now.
Thinking of it now freeing Serbia as a Despotate was probably a great decision. Serbs are a resilient lot, they got BTFO'd many times otl they're still somehow around. The whole dynamic with their new state is completely different than before. Now they have memory of catholic oppression, and owe their independence to the Rhomans. If the Germans come knocking I expect they'll fight harder than anyone to keep the hated Latins out.
I honestly doubt it. Western Europe with the exception of France (who made that alliance which alienated them from the rest of Europe and whilst encircled and in a rivalry with one of the most powerful realms of the period and also constantly fighting them) no one ever made allies against fellow Christians with heathens. I don't see the HRE pulling something like that against their fellow Christian state of Rhomania, especially as this'll be the first time the two had really duked it out since the Final Crusade if I remember correctly. So I don't see the Ottomans being brought in during this war.
The Safavids were successful in such endeavors I imagine because they were targeted at the highly expansionist and incredibly dangerous Ottoman Empire, which was also Muslim and there for perfectly fine to ally with heathens against.
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Wouldn't the HRE see the Rhomanians as a highly expansionist and incredibly dangerous heathen Christian state (since they aren't Catholic and follow Eastern Orthodoxy, similar to how the Safavids were Shiites and the Ottoman's sunni?), similar to how the Safavids viewed the Ottomans? You mentioned the example of France, and they seemed perfectly okay with allying with the Ottomans against their fellow Catholics, the Hapsburg HRE, and vice-versa so I can expect that both the HRE and the Persian Ottomans could be able to utilize all sorts of rationalizations and political hula hoops to ally against a common geopolitical threat.
I guess it depends on how badly the HRE's intervention in the Rhomanian's successionist dispute goes, and if they are really humbled they might take the step to turn to the Ottomans for help.
The HRE wouldn't care about Roman expansionism since the Romans barely touch the German sphere of influence. With Lombardy, Hungary and Croatia between the two, the Romans would have to be particularly dickish for the Germans to sit up and take notice.
This war is a special case because it's personal for the German Emperor.
P.S. Romans rate as heretics in German eyes.
Heretic = follows Jesus, but worships him in the wrong way
Heathen = doesn't accept Jesus as son of God
Evilprodigy
Donor
The best use of it I can think of is as an explosive in a Howitzer-type cannon where the goal is not to plow through ranks of infantry at long range but lob an AoE projectile over the ranks or walls or wagons a shorter distance to deliver an explosive charge. Sort of like the houfnice of the Hussite Wars I suppose.
Alternatively clay grenades with lit fuses or otherwise (if Greek fire ignited by contact with oxygen then fuses would not be necessary) could be useful for light cavalry raiding groups to charge into a camp or village and lob them at something to shatter and ignite before turning around and retreating. They could potentially also be useful as something to drop on enemies from the tops of walls or other fortifications. They would also be fantastic given to melee troops to shatter pike formations or other massed infantry if they could get close enough. It could give the Romans grenadier type units long before they were invented IOTL.
And if you want to go absolutely crazy you could combine the two and have clay or iron grenades filled with Greek fire launched from a handcannon on horseback into lines of musketmen or other massed infantry.
It should be noted that again, the French were the only kingdom in Western Europe who allied with heathens against fellow Christians during this period. The protestants didn't and they were in a worse state. France also felt they were surrounded and in danger of being strangled, something that the HRE in comparison doesn't. Also during this period was consistently getting their ass handed too them by the Habsburgs which made them desperate. The HRE by comparison rarely fights the Rhoman Empire and this is the first major war between the two in at least a century. So they don't have the impetous to literally alienate themselves from the rest of Europe, which they would, if they allied with a heathen power against a Christian realm, even one that is heretical. Besides then they'd have to deal the strengthened Ottoman Empire if they won. Something I imagine they'd rather not deal with.
Plus I'm pretty sure the Shi'ites and Sunnis hated each other more than the orthodox and catholics ever did in OTL which furthered explain the Safavids willingly allying with heathens. Besides the fact of course that the Ottoman Empire was expanding in their direction, something the Rhoman Empire isn't doing in regards to the HRE
Edit: Besides the Ottoman Empire is still recovering from the Eternal War and the lost of most of their Indian territories I imagine. They probably care more about that then what they lost against the Roman Empire honestly. That was at best a few fortresses and a few miles of desert, Northern India is a far better prize and the Ottomans are likely more interested in that when they properly recover than a fortress.
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I don't know, the Romans certainly seem to hate the Catholics enough. The two just aren't intermixed all that much.
Yeah but I don't think the Catholics return the hatred. So they still imagine a general Christendom and the certain rules, such as not allying with heathens against fellow Christians, that entails.
Well they're certainly gonna know better after this war. The Romans are going to beat the Roman Laws of Imperial Succession into them.