Maximum Napoleonic revolutionary influence

Strategos' Risk

Realistically, what would have been the furthest extent of Napoleon's reach during the revolutionary wars? It seems like France at the time, despite the terrors and infighting and so forth, had no shortage of capable officers who could go on adventures abroad.

* Ireland becomes yet another sister republic thanks to an expedition by Lazare Hoche under more favorable weather- AH discussion thread here.

* Egypt becomes a vassal by Napoleon appointing Menou (which wouldn't work, the guy was incompetent and deluded), or IDK, bribing the Albanians to fight the Mamluks and Ottomans a few years ahead of schedule and then Muhammad Ali rises up early as a French ally.

* Poland becomes a full-fledged kingdom, rather than just a duchy.

Anything else? As you can see, I'm interested in the weird edge cases where Napoleonic influence reached the fringes of Europe. I suppose we can also talk about less exotic examples such as Napoleonic Spain not being as doomed as in real life, but that seems even more implausible. Points if you put more of his family on the throne of Warsaw or hell as pharaoh in Egypt. Double points if you have another Bernadotte-type situation where a random French officer becomes the new king.
 

Kibbutznik

Well, Napoleon could institute a policy of funding nationalist rebels in the countries that oppose him. Finns, Baltic peoples, indigenous peoples in Novorossiya for Russia, Hungarians, Bohemians, Croats, Slovenians for Austria.

If Napoleon seizes Egypt, he would have control over British supply routes to India, facilitating possible French expansion into Asia.
 

AussieHawker

Banned
Suvareshkin said:
Well, Napoleon could institute a policy of funding nationalist rebels in the countries that oppose him. Finns, Baltic peoples, indigenous peoples in Novorossiya for Russia, Hungarians, Bohemians, Croats, Slovenians for Austria.

If Napoleon seizes Egypt, he would have control over British supply routes to India, facilitating possible French expansion into Asia.
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Egypt didn't have the Suez Canal yet. So Britian still shipped around the Cape. Also Britian still has naval superiority so can trap French armies in Egypt and prevent breaking out of the Red Sea.
 

Halagaz

Serbia offered to become a French vassal/protectorate in 1809 (and 1810). In OTL Napoleon decided to pursue his Balkan policies in a different way, but the possibility was there.

Napoleon also masterminded together with Selim III a regime change in Wallachia and Moldavia a bit earlier; it didn't stick, but if it did it would presumably result in a considerable increase of unofficial French influence there, as well as in the Ottoman Empire as a whole.
 

unprincipled peter

Donor
an alternate influence for Spain would be to actually treat them as an ally and encouraging them to be an ally, rather than bullying and then finally invading.

related is his treatment of Portugal. he could have had a totally cowed neutral mostly bending to his will. instead, he decided to take over and created a big mess.


The same train of thought goes every where Nap went. all he ever did was tear down rather than build. his 'alliances' were forced and only kept in place by force. the notion of actually encouraging someone to be his friend rather than bullying them into being a pseudo friend was anathema to him.
 

Napoleonrules

Banned
I agree with Unprincipled Peter, I tried a timeline where Napoleon dictated a Concert of Europe to create a Balance of Power. Biggest complaint by others was that it didn't fit Napoleon's character of being a bully, that he wouldn't want a balance. So my timeline fell apart.
 
Alcsentre Calanice

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Napoleon pushes forward in 1797 (no Campo Formio) and establishes an Austrian republic.

Same thing with Hungary, Bohemia, Prussia and Scandinavia some years later.
 

Strategos' Risk

Well, I'm more thinking of him exporting the revolution and setting up sister republics and client states wherever he went. Spain/Portugal allying with France (rather than being straight-up under Napoleonic puppet regimes) is not exactly the same thing.

So how likely is the Ireland idea? It's the one both most exotic and fanciful to me, the idea of striking at the Brits so closely.
 

unprincipled peter

Donor
well, first off you have to recreate Nap as a republican.

which means an alien inhabiting his body.

the guy was a dictator who had no use for republican thought.
 
Alcsentre Calanice

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
unprincipled peter said:
well, first off you have to recreate Nap as a republican.

which means an alien inhabiting his body.

the guy was a dictator who had no use for republican thought.
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Hm So you think Napoleon is a tyrant wanting to subdue all of Europe for the sake of his own power? This is a reduction of his thoughts and ideology to what British propaganda was noising about him. Reality is much more complicated.

Yes, Napoleon hated parliaments. This is nothing new - but not because he was a born dictator, but because he had experienced the corrupt parliament of the Directoire with its coup d'états and its inability to defend France and Northern Italy. Though, Napoleon is neither an enemy of constitutional order nor an advocate of unchecked power in the state. He just wanted to have the national ressources - for defense - under the control of someone capable (forming a strong government).

Yes, Napoleon hated disorder. He had seen what happened under the National Convention and Robespierre's rule. He was nevertheless not opposed to popular sovereignty and restored universal suffrage and even improved the electoral system by introducing secret ballot and facilitating voting for normal peasants.

As to his coronation: if he had been a real monarchist, he would have claimed the old French crown or simply restored the King as his puppet. His Empire was a republican empire, influenced by the Roman Principate, and was legitimized by a plebiscite and the wish of the French Senate.
 
Green Painting

Green Painting

It occurs to me that a not-so-strong dose of Jacobinism, followed by some Bonapartism, a good cure for the problems of India.

The French and some of the Indian Kingdoms, who have been fighting the same enemy at different corners of the world, made good allies. It therefore surprises me that so little military and political cooperation occurred between the two. Had there been a more stable alliance forged between Indian kingdoms and Revolutionary/Napoleonic France, there would be a better chance that the Indian minds gets influenced by the French.

A République marathe perhaps.
 

unprincipled peter

Donor
G.Washington,
Yes, I do think Nap was a power hungry dictator. He wanted to rule a France that was unequaled top dog in the world. that's hardly a bad thing to want for France, but his methodology led to an ever expanding web of domination that ultimately led to virtually everyone looking to get rid of him.

He ruled by fiat, and kept control through domination, both domestic and foreign.

It's not only british propaganda that alleges this. It was his every action. the guy had some admirable traits, and he held some admirable ideals, but let's not sugarcoat that he had a vision that he knew what was best for France, and you had best toe the line in following him.
 

The Tai-Pan

Green Painting said:
It occurs to me that a not-so-strong dose of Jacobinism, followed by some Bonapartism, a good cure for the problems of India.

The French and some of the Indian Kingdoms, who have been fighting the same enemy at different corners of the world, made good allies. It therefore surprises me that so little military and political cooperation occurred between the two. Had there been a more stable alliance forged between Indian kingdoms and Revolutionary/Napoleonic France, there would be a better chance that the Indian minds gets influenced by the French.

A République marathe perhaps.
Click to expand...

The issue is getting there. The Royal Navy will sink any French ship heading to India. Any overseas projection is nearly impossible for the Little Corporal unless we push the POD back.
 
Alcsentre Calanice

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
unprincipled peter said:
G.Washington,
Yes, I do think Nap was a power hungry dictator. He wanted to rule a France that was unequaled top dog in the world. that's hardly a bad thing to want for France, but his methodology led to an ever expanding web of domination that ultimately led to virtually everyone looking to get rid of him.

He ruled by fiat, and kept control through domination, both domestic and foreign.

It's not only british propaganda that alleges this. It was his every action. the guy had some admirable traits, and he held some admirable ideals, but let's not sugarcoat that he had a vision that he knew what was best for France, and you had best toe the line in following him.
Click to expand...

And? Almost every important man in history thought like this.
 

unprincipled peter

Donor
G. Washington
every dictator thought that way. very few of them were right. Personally, I don't think Nap was right. his way was good for France short term, but long term his way was doomed to failure, and pretty much ensured failure. Every single thread ever that addressed how Nap France could endure all had changes to his personality/methodology. There's a reason for this.

He took power by fraud. held it by coercion. led the country on a path that ended with millions dead. It was only by fortuitous circumstance that France wasn't decimated, dismantled, and completely marginalized. His lust for power led to France being penalized after the 100 days and being in a worse position, where they were being let off virtually scot free prior.

He held a few enlightenment ideals. That doesn't make him a republican. Mostly, he was just a military dictator. He lived by the sword, not the pen, and ran a police state. The only one of his brothers who held any republican ideals, Lucien, disavowed him and sought to escape the country rather than carry through with his threat to skewer him with a sword.
 
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