Emberverse: The Golden Princess

Ah. The first time I remember reading about the McKenzies' attitude toward rapists and the "bury them living" at the crossroads with a spear lest the Goddess kill everybody was in the Sunrise Lands novels, a generation or so later.

The "bury them alive" thing might've developed over time. The books specifically mention that Juniper is rather flippant toward her own religion (claiming it was invented so Gerald Gardner had an excuse to get naked with young women) and that makes some of the younger McKenzies uncomfortable.

The McKenzies might get weirder and weirder as time goes by, to the point we end up with The Wicker Man or this rather dark story I remember reading about (I don't think I read the actual story, but an online summary) involving this academic investigating this rural pagan community--and it ends with his wife and daughter drinking the Kool-Aid and having sex with everybody while he's blinded and castrated and locked in a basement.
 
That's something that would be a bit contentious sorting out the legal code in Montival an absolute nightmare!

Given how Canada won't extradite even vile, guilty-as-hell murderers to the U.S. unless there are guarantees they won't be executed, I could imagine nobody willing to extradite an accused rapist to Clan McKenzie (especially the smaller, more rural and inbred duns where the kind of injustices Meatshield suggested could occur).

That could cause issues with the High King, given how he's the founder's son. And since everything's so new, there's no precedent to ensure unpopular rules get obeyed regardless. That could be a major political crisis depending on the relative importance of the alleged perpetrator, the evidence of guilt, etc.
 
Stirling really is a one step forward, two steps back kinda guy, isn't he?

He tries to create strong, female characters. He then often makes them (a) unbelievable Mary Sues or (b) unlikeable (Signe, etc.).

He includes characters from different ethnic backgrounds within America (or, in the case of the Peshawar Lancers, has solid Indian characters). However, Muslims tend to be villains or villainous allies, and are portrayed in an overwhelmingly negative light.

He includes LGBT characters...well, LGB characters...well, LB characters and brief cameos by G. However, he either gives the impression that he's writing one-handedly (his lesbian characters) or he makes snide comments about promiscuity (the few gay men who raise their heads). And let's not forget the Draka series, which often came across as 'white straight 'Murica trying to save the world from evil dominatrix lesbians!'. Don't misunderstand that, by the way - I'm not saying that every book should be a masterpiece of inclusivity. What I am saying is if you want to include such characters (as he seems to), don't make them two-dimensional caricatures.
 
Stirling really is a one step forward, two steps back kinda guy, isn't he?

He tries to create strong, female characters. He then often makes them (a) unbelievable Mary Sues or (b) unlikeable (Signe, etc.).

He includes characters from different ethnic backgrounds within America (or, in the case of the Peshawar Lancers, has solid Indian characters). However, Muslims tend to be villains or villainous allies, and are portrayed in an overwhelmingly negative light.

He includes LGBT characters...well, LGB characters...well, LB characters and brief cameos by G. However, he either gives the impression that he's writing one-handedly (his lesbian characters) or he makes snide comments about promiscuity (the few gay men who raise their heads). And let's not forget the Draka series, which often came across as 'white straight 'Murica trying to save the world from evil dominatrix lesbians!'. Don't misunderstand that, by the way - I'm not saying that every book should be a masterpiece of inclusivity. What I am saying is if you want to include such characters (as he seems to), don't make them two-dimensional caricatures.

I think you're being a bit...strenuous. I never got a lot of these vibes off Stirling at all. The Corsairs in the Emberverse and the Afghan guy in TPL seem like cool people as individuals. Hell, the Afghan guy saves the day in the end by bringing his warlord father's army to break the siege of the fallen Imperial airship. I never got an "overwhelmingly negative" vibe off his portrayal of Muslims in general.

And about the Drakaverse, the bisexuality of the Draka womenfolk seemed to be the product of most Draka men being nymphomaniac rapists (they ignore Citizen women who can tell them no until they grow out of the "screw everything that moves" stage) and the women not having a similar outlet due to the Race Purity Laws. On the surface it seems more liberal, but at it's core its the same kind of environment that produces situational homosexuality in prison or in harems.

And just because a character isn't likable doesn't mean they're not strong female characters. The key concept, per Chuck Wendig, is agency.

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/201...y-pass-the-action-figure-test/comment-page-3/

Signe has agency, even if she's not a pleasant person toward Rudi. The Emberverse and Drakaverse seem to have a bunch of legitimate SFCs--the Mary Sues seem to be in ISOT.
 
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Ah. The first time I remember reading about the McKenzies' attitude toward rapists and the "bury them living" at the crossroads with a spear lest the Goddess kill everybody was in the Sunrise Lands novels, a generation or so later.

The "bury them alive" thing might've developed over time. The books specifically mention that Juniper is rather flippant toward her own religion (claiming it was invented so Gerald Gardner had an excuse to get naked with young women) and that makes some of the younger McKenzies uncomfortable.

I think it probably did, especially amongst the rural Mackenzies as time went on and they had to largely deal with things on their own. They probably trussed them up and buried them with little ceremony. An extreme form of revenge for a very grave sin in their religion. How fair many of these trials are of course is open to question.

From there I can see it gaining traction in the cities as the younger generation finds it normal or justified. It probably horrifies their neighbors to some degree.

The McKenzies might get weirder and weirder as time goes by, to the point we end up with The Wicker Man or this rather dark story I remember reading about (I don't think I read the actual story, but an online summary) involving this academic investigating this rural pagan community--and it ends with his wife and daughter drinking the Kool-Aid and having sex with everybody while he's blinded and castrated and locked in a basement.

If they get to Wicker Man levels of weird that would be horrifying, and would probably endear a major split in Montival.

Given how Canada won't extradite even vile, guilty-as-hell murderers to the U.S. unless there are guarantees they won't be executed, I could imagine nobody willing to extradite an accused rapist to Clan McKenzie (especially the smaller, more rural and inbred duns where the kind of injustices Meatshield suggested could occur).

That could cause issues with the High King, given how he's the founder's son. And since everything's so new, there's no precedent to ensure unpopular rules get obeyed regardless. That could be a major political crisis depending on the relative importance of the alleged perpetrator, the evidence of guilt, etc.

That would cause no end of friction. If the Christian (or Astaru even) members of Montival found the practice so objectionable that they outright refused to extradite criminals (I mean this is only one form of crazy execution that exists, I'm sure there's others) to the Mackenzies for justice, I could see the Mackenzies refusing to do so in kind. It would probably end up happening in a few cases and the High King would be pretty powerless to stop it lest he undermine his own authority by showing favoritism.

Though to be honest this is exactly the sort of internal contradiction which makes Montival unsustainable in the long run. Absent the threat of the CUT on their borders what reason to many of the constituent nations inside it have to stay together? Boise (beyond the now pagan (which is a whole nother kettle of fish in the primarily Christian Boise) Thurston's insistence) has little reason to stay on since they could clearly do well on their own. New Deseret has similar reasons since they could better absorb the Mormon settlements to the south or conduct expansion on their own (which the High King might not be willing to permit). The Bearkillers maybe if the connection stayed strong. CORA again maybe if purely for trade reasons. Corvallis has absolutely none since they are still rather independent minded and I bet anything the guilds would far prefer to run their own affairs, even if they just became a vassal city of the PPA.

Then comes the PPA itself, which considering the apparent track record of there being preferential treatment to a pagan minority I can see no reason for the individually (and collectively) powerful barons to feel that they need to subject themselves to constraints imposed upon them by a (for all intents and purposes) foreign High King or Queen. Independently they outweigh all the other nations combined (well almost) and could easily make a go of it on their own.

It really boils down to that outside author fiat its an institution even more unworkable than the Holy Roman Empire.
 
Now, now we Pagans are reasonable too. Besides Gardner was a bit cooky.

I think at the current pace it is distance that in certain places is not going to create a sense of "Ugh you guys are weird. I am out of here!" After all it hasnt been a century since the Change and there is plenty of room to grow. Hardly anyone is bumping elbows against each other.

Stirling so far hasnt really explained how Rudi kept things together and how he worked as the High King oweing to the time skip and all. Inthink we will get a chance to see that as his daughter steps into her role. I highly doubt it was brainwashing either.
 
It's not really the Stirling pushes his characters into Mary Sue territory....


It's that he goes to all this trouble Worldbuilding like a madman, setting up these cultures and factions....then runs the Plot straight over the top of them. The characters routinely sidestep any problematic parts of their cultures.

Item: Rudi is the hero...so he uses a PPA longsword....instead of the less heroic gladius and buckler that McKenzies are known for. This ties into him somehow having the time to become one of the best Longbowmen in the Clan....at the same time he manages to become the best PPA-style knight (relative to people who are 24/7 Knights).

Item: Tiphaine gets to flout literally every ironclad social stricture, which we are told are impossible to flout (as people will make your life impossible), in the Association....on top of being feared and loathed as a cat's paw duelist who murders people under guise of dueling. She even gets to blatantly circumvent having to marry (I.e. Literally everybody knows she's adopting her girlfriends kids because she's a lesbian), or wear women's clothing...in a society that, within less than twenty years ago, killed nonconformists.
At the end of her run, she even gets bulletproof protection against people wanting to duel her to avenge their murdered relatives.
Great character....and the Author couldn't handle letting anything screw with her.

Item: I forget what book it's in....but I swear to God it's in there. Rudi literally brings his internal monologue to a screeching halt to inform us, in no uncertain terms, that, while young McKenzie boys almost all "experiment"....RUDI never, ever, in any way partook. This was way way into the series, so you get the sense that Stirling suddenly realized that, given the social trends and general liberality of the McKenzies...some readers might possibly think that Rudi could, just possibly, have had some form of homosexual experience...and so the narrative needed to nip that in the bud!


We won't even get into the fact that Juniper and Rudi routinely manage to strip every other character in any given scene of their agency. Juniper literally brought a kidnapped child into Corvallis and dangled her in front of the child's mother...and the Corvallans basically shrugged (despite the Corvallans bring famous for maintaining pre-Change notions of legality).
 
I thought Tiphaine was married to Rigobert, who's rather, ahem, flaming.

(Pretty sure it's her. Isn't Della a commoner?)

Plus with Rudi dead, Matilda recovering from a difficult miscarriage and thus somewhat secluded, and Orlaith mysteriously disappearing with a bunch of Japanese people, there might still be time for Tiphaine's past to catch up with her.
 
I thought Tiphaine was married to Rigobert, who's rather, ahem, flaming.

(Pretty sure it's her. Isn't Della a commoner?)

Plus with Rudi dead, Matilda recovering from a difficult miscarriage and thus somewhat secluded, and Orlaith mysteriously disappearing with a bunch of Japanese people, there might still be time for Tiphaine's past to catch up with her.

Tiphaine is unmarried. Delia (who everyone over the age of 3 knows to be Tiphaine's lover) is married to Rigobert. Tiphaine adopted 2 out of 4 of Delia's + Rigobert's kids.


Yeah, the "Rudi Gap" is a potential Plot-launching platform to shake up Montival. Some of the dialogue at the end of TGP and in the sample chapters for the upcoming book (The Desert and The Blade) seems to hint that Mathilda and Orlaith might be opposed to one another (Mathilda, significantly, is not seen, only mentioned, in TGP). Given that Orlaith is in possession of the Sword (the de facto crown of Montival, which legitimizes the monarch)...but Mathilda is legally High Queen (but has no Sword) until Orlaith is 26.....Montival might have a few legal flaws...

IIRC, there is a third sibling (an infant or toddler), in addition to Orlaith and John.
 
Item: Tiphaine gets to flout literally every ironclad social stricture, which we are told are impossible to flout (as people will make your life impossible), in the Association....on top of being feared and loathed as a cat's paw duelist who murders people under guise of dueling. She even gets to blatantly circumvent having to marry (I.e. Literally everybody knows she's adopting her girlfriends kids because she's a lesbian), or wear women's clothing...in a society that, within less than twenty years ago, killed nonconformists.
At the end of her run, she even gets bulletproof protection against people wanting to duel her to avenge their murdered relatives.
Great character....and the Author couldn't handle letting anything screw with her

Yes. And the thing is: he could have still let her be untouchable from the PPA's point of view...and not played havoc with his world building, plus given her a decent character arc.

Have her join either the Bearkillers or the McKenzies. Basically, have an arc where the closer she gets to Delia the more she comes to question and hate the PPA, but because of her personal loyalty to Sandra, she hangs on. Then the Church discovers Delia's a witch and decides to burn her (this is the Cliff notes version I'm writing here), so after agonising, Tiphaine rescues her and they hightail it out of the PPA. Then there's some debate among the good guys about letting her in, but eventually they do (I figure Bearkillers are more likely, since Havel would be more willing to give her a chance than the McKenzies would given that she killed Judy's adopted daughter, plus he's more likely to think in terms of grey than black or white). And, over time...she becomes the feared Lady Death she was in the PPA, only on the other side. Basically, when the good guys know they need to get their hands dirty, they look to her.
 
Yes. And the thing is: he could have still let her be untouchable from the PPA's point of view...and not played havoc with his world building, plus given her a decent character arc.

Have her join either the Bearkillers or the McKenzies. Basically, have an arc where the closer she gets to Delia the more she comes to question and hate the PPA, but because of her personal loyalty to Sandra, she hangs on. Then the Church discovers Delia's a witch and decides to burn her (this is the Cliff notes version I'm writing here), so after agonising, Tiphaine rescues her and they hightail it out of the PPA. Then there's some debate among the good guys about letting her in, but eventually they do (I figure Bearkillers are more likely, since Havel would be more willing to give her a chance than the McKenzies would given that she killed Judy's adopted daughter, plus he's more likely to think in terms of grey than black or white). And, over time...she becomes the feared Lady Death she was in the PPA, only on the other side. Basically, when the good guys know they need to get their hands dirty, they look to her.


That derails a lot of the (good) Plot of the later books, as it more or less has Tiphaine jump sides as soon as she is introduced (TPW and AMaC take place over the course of about a year). After that, being a Pagan isn't a legal issue (being known to be one will, however, make an Associate's life impossible, since being ostracized effectively cuts you out of the Association's social and economic streams). How Delia manages to become a Juniper-level superWitch (able to engage in psychic combat with CUTzombies), while keeping it on the down-low...is another question.

It's only her (Tiphaine's) utter invulnerability (and acknowledgement of it) from any social dangers, and her Karma Houdini escape from post-war death at the hands of vengeance-seeking duelists (who now have a chance, because she's lost a step)...that really harms the character.

If the Associates feared her that much....they'd simply kill her (by extralegal means), and there wouldn't be much Sandra could do about it. This has more to do with Sandra being able to simultaneously enjoy the benefits of being a feudal ruler (a distributed network of vassals, rather than trying to run the country yourself) while avoiding any of the inherent drawbacks (i.e. not being able to rule against the majority of the Barons....see how the Magna Carta came to be). It's only feudal while it works for Sandra....and then suddenly, when Sandra's part in the story requires it, the PPA functions like an Absolute Monarchy.
 
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Feudal system

In feudal system it is not simple thing to kill another feudal lords subject even legally. When that feudal lord is monarch and subject is not just member of nobility but office holder for that monarch, extralegal means act of treason even in feudal systems because monarch is the ultimate feudal lord. Sandra would have lots things she could and would do by custom and by law. You wouldn't want to be even suspected of assassination of Tiphaine. All the killings she made were ordered or approved by Sandra and everyone knows it. Not retaliating would weaken her position and crowns position. And nobility would be okay with it as long as she wouldn't go too overboard with it. After all feudal system depends that feudal nobility has protection from each other and that is monarchs function. There are lots of examples what happened when monarchs were weak in feudal kingdoms. Sane nobility don't want that.
 
In feudal system it is not simple thing to kill another feudal lords subject even legally. When that feudal lord is monarch and subject is not just member of nobility but office holder for that monarch, extralegal means act of treason even in feudal systems because monarch is the ultimate feudal lord. Sandra would have lots things she could and would do by custom and by law. You wouldn't want to be even suspected of assassination of Tiphaine. All the killings she made were ordered or approved by Sandra and everyone knows it. Not retaliating would weaken her position and crowns position. And nobility would be okay with it as long as she wouldn't go too overboard with it. After all feudal system depends that feudal nobility has protection from each other and that is monarchs function. There are lots of examples what happened when monarchs were weak in feudal kingdoms. Sane nobility don't want that.


Except that Feudal systems work much, much differently than a Absolute Monarchy.
In the latter, King Kevin can simply have Baron Bob arrested, "tried", and boiled in oil.
In the former.....King Kevin has to tread carefully, lest assailing Baron Bob (openly, or sub-rosa) piss off the other Barons enough for them to come have a word with King Kevin. The system is such that the Barons, collectively (or even a large fraction thereof), outweigh the Monarch. The Monarch, accordingly, tends to act much more collegially towards them.


IOW, the PPA as described should not be a system in which the Nobility collectively lives in fear of Sandra sending Tiphaine to kill them.
That doesn't jibe with the narrative, which tells us that Tiphaine semi-openly uses the code duello as a means to carry out unofficial executions (which is an abuse of the code, and would cause her severe trouble), and that Sandra somehow manages to operate much more like Augustus Caesar or Louis XIV than Henry V or Edward I....and dance all over the persons of the Baronial classes (while still not being able to touch the Stavarovs...who all the Armingers have wanted to kill off for the last 40 years).

Long story short...Stirling lets his pet characters sidestep any problems their cultures would cause.
 
Item: Rudi is the hero...so he uses a PPA longsword....instead of the less heroic gladius and buckler that McKenzies are known for. This ties into him somehow having the time to become one of the best Longbowmen in the Clan....at the same time he manages to become the best PPA-style knight (relative to people who are 24/7 Knights).

This I was somewhat more accepting was as it was all to fit the ancient hero/perfect warrior archetype of older tales into the story. However, when it becomes blatantly apparent that Rudi has no equal in any activity it tends to drain any sense of tension from fights. Sure he could get wounded, but when you don't have a bad guy who stands a snowballs chance in Hell of single combat against him you begin to find all fights with Rudi really really boring.

Item: I forget what book it's in....but I swear to God it's in there. Rudi literally brings his internal monologue to a screeching halt to inform us, in no uncertain terms, that, while young McKenzie boys almost all "experiment"....RUDI never, ever, in any way partook. This was way way into the series, so you get the sense that Stirling suddenly realized that, given the social trends and general liberality of the McKenzies...some readers might possibly think that Rudi could, just possibly, have had some form of homosexual experience...and so the narrative needed to nip that in the bud!

See I've always gotten the vibe that Stirling is really fascinated with the really 'traditional' image of masculinity where every real man is this hard warrior who doesn't take shit and is always getting the ladies. Not a single male character (who isn't the token gay male) has deviated from that trope.

That Rudi, whose culture is most certainly not steeped in the serious sexual taboo's against such activities, would not even have it cross his mind is a tad unusual, but considering Stirlings very rigid adherence to this interpretation of manhood I'm unsurprised.

We won't even get into the fact that Juniper and Rudi routinely manage to strip every other character in any given scene of their agency. Juniper literally brought a kidnapped child into Corvallis and dangled her in front of the child's mother...and the Corvallans basically shrugged (despite the Corvallans bring famous for maintaining pre-Change notions of legality).

Oh this does grate. But as to the Corvallis incident, Mathilda was a political hostage (which the Corvallis Senate would probably recognize as a legitimate situation in feudal politics) and they were trying to maintain their neutrality in the upcoming war so their non-intervention at least makes sense.
 
That derails a lot of the (good) Plot of the later books, as it more or less has Tiphaine jump sides as soon as she is introduced (TPW and AMaC take place over the course of about a year). After that, being a Pagan isn't a legal issue (being known to be one will, however, make an Associate's life impossible, since being ostracized effectively cuts you out of the Association's social and economic streams). How Delia manages to become a Juniper-level superWitch (able to engage in psychic combat with CUTzombies), while keeping it on the down-low...is another question.

Honestly Arminger's pet inquisition seemed to be useful as the plots demands it rather than actually useful. Then the social issues (even amongst the lower classes who would see paganism as not being the way to get ahead) would lead to pagan persons in the PPA being ostracized to a degree. Being an Associate and being a Pagan would be unthinkable!

It's only her (Tiphaine's) utter invulnerability (and acknowledgement of it) from any social dangers, and her Karma Houdini escape from post-war death at the hands of vengeance-seeking duelists (who now have a chance, because she's lost a step)...that really harms the character.

If the Associates feared her that much....they'd simply kill her (by extralegal means), and there wouldn't be much Sandra could do about it. This has more to do with Sandra being able to simultaneously enjoy the benefits of being a feudal ruler (a distributed network of vassals, rather than trying to run the country yourself) while avoiding any of the inherent drawbacks (i.e. not being able to rule against the majority of the Barons....see how the Magna Carta came to be). It's only feudal while it works for Sandra....and then suddenly, when Sandra's part in the story requires it, the PPA functions like an Absolute Monarchy.

See at first this makes sense, Sandra is described as having lots of dirt on the Associates, which given her character's abilities and descriptions I can easily believe. However, as she ages, so does the information and as the next generation of Associates comes to power she has less and less control over them. This means she should be getting more backsass than portrayed in the books, but this is just rolled over as the plot demands.

Hell even Arminger mentions in TPW that in spite of this some barons overtly ignore his decrees and raise their drawbridges to him, and even he notes that alone he's not as powerful as all the barons combined. So Sandra would have had to tread way more carefully then she did in book.

IOW, the PPA as described should not be a system in which the Nobility collectively lives in fear of Sandra sending Tiphaine to kill them.
That doesn't jibe with the narrative, which tells us that Tiphaine semi-openly uses the code duello as a means to carry out unofficial executions (which is an abuse of the code, and would cause her severe trouble), and that Sandra somehow manages to operate much more like Augustus Caesar or Louis XIV than Henry V or Edward I....and dance all over the persons of the Baronial classes (while still not being able to touch the Stavarovs...who all the Armingers have wanted to kill off for the last 40 years).

Tiphane, well she should have been dead long before she became Lord Marshal, the number of people who would want to assassinate her would be astounding, and the number of barons who would oppose her appointment on principle or out of revenge would probably be enough to pressure Sandra to give the position to somebody else.

Long story short...Stirling lets his pet characters sidestep any problems their cultures would cause.

Bingo.
 
I remember reading on TVTropes that Sandra basically turns into Lord Vetinari. I was somewhat...irked by this comment, as she basically does it out of plot convenience. Have a problem with your characters dealing with the structure of your state? Easy - turn one of them into a spymaster wizardess who everyone's suddenly afraid of... Grrrr...
 
I remember reading on TVTropes that Sandra basically turns into Lord Vetinari. I was somewhat...irked by this comment, as she basically does it out of plot convenience. Have a problem with your characters dealing with the structure of your state? Easy - turn one of them into a spymaster wizardess who everyone's suddenly afraid of... Grrrr...

Yeah it's lazy. Sandra has many informed abilities (given that we never see how she manages to collect this dirt or even act really spy-mastery) which seem to get trotted out as the plot demands.

The only reason I believed it in the next couple books were because she was shown as being more politically savvy and intuitive than her husband (learning Sindarin so the Rangers couldn't code talk in front of her, and working to prevent Rudi from being assassinated).
 
Yes. And the thing is: he could have still let her be untouchable from the PPA's point of view...and not played havoc with his world building, plus given her a decent character arc.

Have her join either the Bearkillers or the McKenzies. Basically, have an arc where the closer she gets to Delia the more she comes to question and hate the PPA, but because of her personal loyalty to Sandra, she hangs on. Then the Church discovers Delia's a witch and decides to burn her (this is the Cliff notes version I'm writing here), so after agonising, Tiphaine rescues her and they hightail it out of the PPA. Then there's some debate among the good guys about letting her in, but eventually they do (I figure Bearkillers are more likely, since Havel would be more willing to give her a chance than the McKenzies would given that she killed Judy's adopted daughter, plus he's more likely to think in terms of grey than black or white). And, over time...she becomes the feared Lady Death she was in the PPA, only on the other side. Basically, when the good guys know they need to get their hands dirty, they look to her.

That would be really cool.

Alternatively, given how she's Sandra's pet, Sandra's death might put her in a more vulnerable position.
 
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