Europe without the Ottoman Empire...

Ran Exilis

Something I've been wondering for a while (it has to do with a few scenario's I'm working on):
How would Europe (and particularly the Balkans) have developed if the Ottoman Empire would never have expanded into Europe?

...and I'm thinking of a scenario without an expanding Byzantine Empire here.

The Byzantine Empire will exist here, but it will remain confined to the predominately Greek coastal territories in Europe and Asia Minor. The most likely agressive imperialistic nations here are propably Bulgaria and Hungary in this scenario.

There is a Turkish presence in inland Anatolia in this scenario, but the Turks remain relatively weak and divided here.
 

Ran Exilis

Empror Mike said:
You'll need a different Mongol invasion of the region for this scenario.
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Maybe it does.

One of the scenario's I'm working on actually includes a different Mongol invasion. The main scenario I'm working on includes a weaker Golden Horde that organizes fewer raids in Eastern Europe, while the Turks in Anatolia will suffer more from the Mongols (which is also the reason why the Turkish statelets remain relatively weak and divided)

But right now, I just want to know the exactly how especially southeastern Europe would develop without a Turkish invasion from Anatolia.
 

orion900

Great idea, would as like to see a Roma state included in this timeline. Since at about this time the Roma people would be in the area.


orion
 

Empror Mike

There would be a strange rivalry thingy between Bulgaria and the secretly-weaker Byzantine Empire. The Hungarians would occasionally try to shove their nose into the business, but unsuccesfully.

I say the Bulgars and Byzantines will vassalate all the smaller kingdoms in the area similar to the US and Russia did in OTL.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
I think you'd probably have a lot of conflict between weak and divided states with Hungary eventually dominating the region.

Assuming Orthodoxy can survive without the Ottomans (iffy), then eventually as feudal structures decline and Latin rule becomes more and more onerous and intolerable, the Byzantines would probably be able to recover a lot of Greece and the Islands.

I don't think the Byzantines are going to be able to hold onto anything in Anatolia, though. All they had, and the only place with any Greek population, was the area around the Sea of Marmara. They weren't able to defend this even against the Ottomans, who were an incredibly small and weak state at first in OTL.
 

King Gorilla

Empror Mike said:
There would be a strange rivalry thingy between Bulgaria and the secretly-weaker Byzantine Empire. The Hungarians would occasionally try to shove their nose into the business, but unsuccesfully.

I say the Bulgars and Byzantines will vassalate all the smaller kingdoms in the area similar to the US and Russia did in OTL.
Click to expand...

There could also be a strong serbia as well, particularly without the battle of Kosevo field.
 

Tizoc

Well, it looks to me a scenario with Laskarid dynasty keeping the Byzantine throne instead of Paleologi getting it. I read somewhere that negliegence of Asia Minor during Michael VIII Paleologos reign was caused in the fact that Eastern Anatolia was Laskarid stronghold. I see a POD in 1235 - just make the Byzantine-Bulgar attack of Constantinopol succesful. Later Mongols come and weaken Bulgars and Rum, saving Byzantines a lot of headache.
 

Wendell

Well, the Balkans could see fiercer rivalries between Catholic and Orthodox states, without the additional complication of Muslims in the Balkans. That said, a Jewish state emerging in the area would be interesting too.
 

abas

Wendell said:
Well, the Balkans could see fiercer rivalries between Catholic and Orthodox states, without the additional complication of Muslims in the Balkans. That said, a Jewish state emerging in the area would be interesting too.
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Don't forgot and strong bogomil presence in this area.
 

M79

I think the Byzantines come back and that they follow an Ottoman-like course with the Empire lasting into the 20th century with core possessions in western/central Anatolia, modern Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, and perhaps chunks of old Yugoslavia.
 

Gladi

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
That's disputed now. Some most likely did, as a great deal of Bosnians did convert, but they didn't do it en masse, and most probably ended up Catholic.
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Bright day
Really? My philosophy/religion teacher explained the larger conversions in Bosnia by orthodox/rome fighting and resulting Bogomils, which weakened the faith in region...?

On topic: depending on PoD the rennesaince may be screwed. OTL its first philosophical part ended when France finally got its act together and invaded Italy. ITTL Austria or Byzantines can nip humanism in its bud.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Gladi said:
On topic: depending on PoD the rennesaince may be screwed. OTL its first philosophical part ended when France finally got its act together and invaded Italy. ITTL Austria or Byzantines can nip humanism in its bud.
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Without the Ottomans, what IS Europe? It seems to me that the "European Identity" is "That which is not Ottoman" to a significant extent.
 

Gladi

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Without the Ottomans, what IS Europe? It seems to me that the "European Identity" is "That which is not Ottoman" to a significant extent.
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Eucumenis...

Beside the arbitraly geographic terms, there is no consenuss anyway, nor has there ever been one.

Though rennesaince started as quest for new identity, because the christian identity was no longer right for the chaotic Italy.
 

Ran Exilis

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Without the Ottomans, what IS Europe? It seems to me that the "European Identity" is "That which is not Ottoman" to a significant extent.
Click to expand...

Good point!

Without the Ottoman Empire, the border between Europe and Asia becomes a lot less clear and a lot more artificial (like the border between European and Asian Russia), especially if the Byzantine Empire (...or whatever is left of that) retains parts of Asia Minor.

And like you said, the whole concept of a "European Identity" might not develop as much, although something like it will propably still develop, since there are still too many things that clearly distinguish Europe from the "barbaric" nations that surround it, since those nations are still Muslim nations.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Ran Exilis said:
Good point!

Without the Ottoman Empire, the border between Europe and Asia becomes a lot less clear and a lot more artificial (like the border between European and Asian Russia), especially if the Byzantine Empire (...or whatever is left of that) retains parts of Asia Minor.
Click to expand...
I tend to think that the Byzantines were sufficiently "Oriental" to serve as an effective Other - in this case, along with Orthodox Christianity.
 

Ran Exilis

Leo Caesius said:
I tend to think that the Byzantines were sufficiently "Oriental" to serve as an effective Other - in this case, along with Orthodox Christianity.
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True, there have been periods that the Roman Catholic Church regarded Orthodox Christianity as a greater threat than Islam. And because that attitude only changed because most Orthodox nations were defeated and conquered by the Ottomans, there is no reason to assume that this attitude will change if the main Orthodox powers survive.

Thus, most European nations would regard the Orthodox nations as something slightly familiar yet alien at best.


Until the Reformation makes things a lot more complicated, that is.
 
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