Fascist but not Nazi Germany during the 20th Century

Landshark

What if instead of the Nazis coming to power in 1933 a less psychopathic authoritarian regime took control of Germany? Something more on the lines of the Spanish and Italian Fascist governments.

Would a tri-polar world of Communist, Fascist and Democratic blocs form, if so which countries would belong to which and would the dictatorships eventually collapse in the same way the USSR did?
 

Hazazel

I suppose fascism could survive longer than communism. After all it's like social democracy without the democracy-part :D

Anyway someone believes so.
 

luakel

Landshark said:
What if instead of the Nazis coming to power in 1933 a less psychopathic authoritarian regime took control of Germany? Something more on the lines of the Spanish and Italian Fascist governments.
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This guy could lead the regime...
Landshark said:
Would a tri-polar world of Communist, Fascist and Democratic blocs form, if so which countries would belong to which and would the dictatorships eventually collapse in the same way the USSR did?
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Having three power blocks vying for power would definitely be interesting, especially in hotspots like the Middle East and Balkans... not to mention South America.
 

Dean_the_Young

Short of removing the mass murders of Jews, how much better race wise would a Fascist Germany be? Fascism is extreme nationalism, one of the traits of national unity is the opposition to the outside "other." While the communists filled this role for Italy, I believe, that didn't keep Italy from brutally invading Africa with planes, machine guns, and poison gas to create their own empire. The jews might not be slaughtered on such a scale, but I doubt they'd be welcomed.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Isn't pure fascism usually associated with defending the traditional powers of the Catholic church, though? I don't see how it could work in religiously mixed Germany.
 

Jeeves

I believe the only national-conservative party in the early 30's with any chance of "displacing" the NSDAP was the DNVP - lets say after the disastrous losses in the Reichstag election of 1928 the more moderate von Westarp manages to hold on to the party leadership (through bribing, promises - well, politics ...). The radical shift to the right that occured under Hugenberg never happens, the party remains united.

Hugenberg realizes that he couldn't hope to take much of the party membership with himself if he chose to leave the party and keeps the weight of his media empire in support of the party - instead of the "Stahlhelm". The DNVP's results in the 1930 election are better than in OTL - not by much, but all it's gains compared to OTL come from the NSDAP.

A coalition of the Zentrum, DNVP and national-liberal elements manages to survive the Great Depression and with the economy showing signs of recovery in 1933, even more votes flow from the ultra-radical fringe parties back to the moderates, allowing the now DNVP-led coalition to finally achieve a clear majority.

edit: Looking at the DNVP's political aims, they probably don't qualify as fascists - their economic policies are too liberal. Still, they're the next "best" thing with any chance of coming to power.
 
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Hazazel

Thande said:
Isn't pure fascism usually associated with defending the traditional powers of the Catholic church, though? I don't see how it could work in religiously mixed Germany.
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I can't see catholicism as essential part of fascism. Why would it be?

Anyway that sounds more like somekind of catholic conservatism.
 

Wozza

Thande said:
Isn't pure fascism usually associated with defending the traditional powers of the Catholic church, though?
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Only in Spain, where the Catholic church was under threat, certainly Mussolini did not care about the Catholic Church.

And on other matters:

Hugenberg could not lead a fascist Germany due to not being a fascist. He was an authoritarian nationalist. If you cannot tell the difference between fascism and authoritarianism then go back to square one.

A fascist Germany requires a party of similar social and ideological roots to the Nazis (ie upstarts, largely not from the tradituional elite and probably with some ideological links to socialism) but different concerns - state not race. Fascism is also more futurist, Nazism glorified the rural idyll, and has more of a reactionary streak in some ways.

Fascism can be characterised as a developmental dictatorship, not particularly a concern in Germany (although it remained economically backward in some ways); where the far right preferred talking about kultur, art, the soul and Romantic things - spiritual development. Italians new that there power in the world was limited because they were not shiny and modern enough. Germans felt themselves to be shiny and modern, but had been held back by internal decay, the stab in the back and their civilisation being unappreciated in the world.

Ironically, by the time of Hitler's second book, he was more concerned about German backwardness vis a vis the United States. For fascism in Germany you would need an earlier realisation in Germany about its economic problems - a backward agricultural and craft sector in particular, and a greater willingnes to address these problems.
 

Hazazel

Wozza said:
Only in Spain, where the Catholic church was under threat, certainly Mussolini did not care about the Catholic Church.

And on other matters:

Hugenberg could not lead a fascist Germany due to not being a fascist. He was an authoritarian nationalist. If you cannot tell the difference between fascism and authoritarianism then go back to square one.

A fascist Germany requires a party of similar social and ideological roots to the Nazis (ie upstarts, largely not from the tradituional elite and probably with some ideological links to socialism) but different concerns - state not race. Fascism is also more futurist, Nazism glorified the rural idyll, and has more of a reactionary streak in some ways.

Fascism can be characterised as a developmental dictatorship, not particularly a concern in Germany (although it remained economically backward in some ways); where the far right preferred talking about kultur, art, the soul and Romantic things - spiritual development. Italians new that there power in the world was limited because they were not shiny and modern enough. Germans felt themselves to be shiny and modern, but had been held back by internal decay, the stab in the back and their civilisation being unappreciated in the world.

Ironically, by the time of Hitler's second book, he was more concerned about German backwardness vis a vis the United States. For fascism in Germany you would need an earlier realisation in Germany about its economic problems - a backward agricultural and craft sector in particular, and a greater willingnes to address these problems.
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That was well put. :)
 

Starsign

Banned
This alternate nationalist germany, will probably speak out against communism in russia and in the balkans.

Spanish civil war nationalists win, 1940 starts with a somewhat different build up to WW2 than our TL.

1940 France occupied by German and later British forces when leftist french parties seize power and show signs of turning the country communist, massive german and italian speakout against communism, balkans start coming under german influence, germans work out a treaty with america and japan negotiating a key oil deal.

1941 Increased German Influence within the balkans, underground anti communist smuggling network of leaflets across the baltic.

June 1941 ,Stalins invasion of Poland, massive outcry's from Britian and Germany. Austria joins with Germany.

August 1941 Soviets refuse to leave poland, WW2 begins. Spain is neutral for the fact that its military is worn down by its Nationalist-Republican civil war. China is in civil war.

November 1941 Soviets driven out of Poland and the Baltics by Allied powers. British, Germans, Italians, Japanise and Baltic Resistance.

December 1941 Soviet fleet attacks american fleet at pearl harbour, U.S president declares war on the USSR, U.S joins Allied Powers.

1942 Invasion of Russia Proper begins, German, British and American forces launch attacks at Key Soviet army groups, forces are aimed to Capture Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow.

March 1942 Stalingrad is captured by the allies, after heavy losses.
Russian White Anti Communist movement is reformed.

June 1942 Leningrad is taken after further heavy loses and a bitter struggle by British, German ,American and Russian White Army Forces.

August 1942 Moscow is finally captured by the Allies. Stalin commits suicide. Beria and Khruschev are executed by White Russian Forces.

September 1942 Molotov Orders Last Soviet Forces in Formely USSR Surrender.

Baltics and Poland will regain their respected democratic goverments and Russia is now White Held with a new constitution and a capitalist, nationalist system of leadership.

All attention is shifted onto defeating Maos Reds in far Northern China.

1943 Chinease Nationalist, Russian and American forces defeat Maos Red Army.

WW2 is Over


:cool:
 
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Max Sinister

Banned
Two things:

1. Mussolini didn't care about the Catholic church? Thanks to him, the Vatican state came into existence. Since the Italians had taken Rome in 1871, the Italian-Papal relationship hadn't been that great - the pope considered himself "the prisoner in the Vatican". Now this changed again.
2. Yes, the nazis had this romantic thing, with the glorification of the rural idyll - but it didn't stop them from modernizing Germany in many ways. (Would the Romantics have liked the autobahns? I think not.) In many ways, it was only rhetoric.
 

Hazazel

Max Sinister said:
1. Mussolini didn't care about the Catholic church? Thanks to him, the Vatican state came into existence. Since the Italians had taken Rome in 1871, the Italian-Papal relationship hadn't been that great - the pope considered himself "the prisoner in the Vatican". Now this changed again.
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I thought he did it in order to get support of the Church.
 

Max Sinister

Banned
Yes... and as I wrote, he did care about the catholic church, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. Hitler OTOH would've loved to replace the churches completely by the NS ideology.
 

Hazazel

Max Sinister said:
Yes... and as I wrote, he did care about the catholic church, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. Hitler OTOH would've loved to replace the churches completely by the NS ideology.
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Yes but I think Mussolinis reasons were political. He was ex-marxist and therefore I suppose he was atheist also?






Full hundred! :)
 

oberdada

Don't forget that the DNVP was a monarchistic party.

So with Hugenberg in Power, he might have called Kaiser Wilhem II. back from the Netherlands, without giving him real power, or at least not much.
 

Ivan Druzhkov

Landshark said:
Would a tri-polar world of Communist, Fascist and Democratic blocs form, if so which countries would belong to which and would the dictatorships eventually collapse in the same way the USSR did?
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Why does it have to be three-sided? We could always end up with a situation where this fascist Chancellor spends the late 1930s building himself a bigger, better Reich out of the various little countries in Central Europe no one in London or Paris would've missed through means fair and foul, then turns around and proposes a pan-European anti-Soviet alliance? Certainly the idea is far from implausible, and would keep Germany sitting pretty for some time to come.
 
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