The Demologos in the Chesapeake campaign?

Jim Smitty · Jan 27, 2013

Say in 1812, just after the War of 1812 started, Robert Fulton looking to make abuck on the war pitches the idea of the Demologos to Conrgess. Conrgess gives the ok to build three Demologos class ships to defend the Chesapeake Bay area, New York, and Boston.

The Demologos is ready by the time the British sail into the Chesapaeake to start the Chesapaeake campaign. Needing claim weather to work right, Washington is still burned to the ground, but before the British starts the bombarbment of Ft McHenry weather allows the Demologos to sail.

What kind of damage could the Demologos do to the British fleet?

Would this change the course of the war?

Would smaller victories in around New York and Boston break the British Blockade, and thus allowing American Privateers into the Altanic raising hell on British shipping, wpu;d this force the British to give something up in the Peace treaty with the US or would they double down in 1814 after Napoleon when down?

Lycaon pictus · Jan 28, 2013

In calm weather, the Demologos would be the Royal Navy's worst nightmare… if everything went right.

Things that could go wrong include the engine breaking down, the ship running aground (the Chesapeake Bay is very shallow in places) or running into a British ship that could reliably handle heated shot without setting itself on fire or blowing itself up.

Elfwine · Jan 28, 2013

Lycaon pictus said:
In calm weather, the Demologos would be the Royal Navy's worst nightmare… if everything went right.

Things that could go wrong include the engine breaking down, the ship running aground (the Chesapeake Bay is very shallow in places) or running into a British ship that could reliably handle heated shot without setting itself on fire or blowing itself up.

Even in calm weather, it's firepower isn't that amazing, so while it might have some advantage from steam - I don't see it, alone, mattering.

Jim Smitty · Jan 28, 2013

What I'm after is this, stay the engine holds is, how much many ships could the Demologos take out before the Royal Navy falls back?

Elfwine · Jan 28, 2013

Jim Smitty said:
What I'm after is this, stay the engine holds is, how much many ships could the Demologos take out before the Royal Navy falls back?

I am mildly amused at the notion that a ship with firepower comparable at best to say, the USS Constitution is going to force the Royal Navy to fall back.

Jim Smitty · Jan 28, 2013

Elfwine said:
I am mildly amused at the notion that a ship with firepower comparable at best to say, the USS Constitution is going to force the Royal Navy to fall back.

Firing Red Shot, and four to five foot thick oak timber armor, I think its possible. If not fall back at least given them one hell of a bloody nose.

RamscoopRaider · Jan 28, 2013

Elfwine said:
I am mildly amused at the notion that a ship with firepower comparable at best to say, the USS Constitution is going to force the Royal Navy to fall back.

It has a couple advantages, it can maneuver into position and cross T's, its sides are thick enough that it can render any counterfire moot, and it already has a fire on board for making red hot shot and the firebox is specifically designed to accommodate that

Essentially its advantage is that its rounds have to be removed or it will set the opponent aflame, and wrestling with 32 pounds of red hot iron while being shot at is not an easy task

Normal sailing vessels do not really have the option to use Red Hot Shot like that, too much of a chance to accidentally set the ship on fire, but the Demologos is a steam ship anyway so has a firebox to safely house the fire, and heat up the shot

Source

carlton_bach · Jan 28, 2013

Jim Smitty said:
What I'm after is this, stay the engine holds is, how much many ships could the Demologos take out before the Royal Navy falls back?

Depends on the tactical situation, really. Sailing warships can take an awful lot of damage in an outright slugging match. Unless the Demologos uses heated shot (which would require a very well trained crew and no fuckups), the threat it poses would be limited. If you could place it astrern of an enemy shgip, it could probably force it to surrender even so, but in confined waters, enemy ships could drop anchor and warp or kedge to train their broadsides, so there is really no guarantee that would work. And never mind the thick walls and all, if a real ship of the line gets that thing in its effective range, it won't last forever. All it will take is one hit in the funnel or wheelwell. And that's not counting the possibility of boarding action, something the Royal Navy was famously good at.

If the demologos came upon the Royal Navy ships at anchor, in a dead calm, in relatively open water, it is quite possible it could do significant damage to a number of them. They have no real way of falling back if the steamship's batteries seriously try to prevent that by firing on their boats. But the undertaking would be chancy, because every major warship in the fleet would outclass its broadside and it would not be invulnerable or even particularly resistant to round shot. And then they go in close for the kill, and some clever-dick British officer brings down a mast across its deck and sends over the boarders... Demologos, as drawn, has neither swivelguns nor carronades or any place to mount boarding nets.

Safer to engage in a long-range artillery duel and scare them away.

Derek Pullem · Jan 28, 2013

Jim Smitty said:
Firing Red Shot, and four to five foot thick oak timber armor, I think its possible. If not fall back at least given them one hell of a bloody nose.

It's broadside is 6 32pdr compared to 14 32 pdr (and assorted others) in a standard 74 man of war. The man of war would need to close to about 100 yards before being able to penetrate the Demologus' armour - it is not invulnerable

There are also the heavier carronades which although they would not penetrate could do considereable damage by momentum alone (consider afore mentioned heated shot being carried to the guns when hit by one or two 68 pounder shell travelling at 750-1000 fps.)

A bit awkward but to be honest less dangerous than the fort itself - which man of war were well used to bombarding.

Elfwine · Jan 28, 2013

RamscoopRaider said:
It has a couple advantages, it can maneuver into position and cross T's, its sides are thick enough that it can render any counterfire moot, and it already has a fire on board for making red hot shot and the firebox is specifically designed to accommodate that

What's the basis for the idea that it's sides are any thicker than a conventional vessel?

Essentially its advantage is that its rounds have to be removed or it will set the opponent aflame, and wrestling with 32 pounds of red hot iron while being shot at is not an easy task

Not so hard as you might think.

Normal sailing vessels do not really have the option to use Red Hot Shot like that, too much of a chance to accidentally set the ship on fire, but the Demologos is a steam ship anyway so has a firebox to safely house the fire, and heat up the shot

Source

The issue quite so much isn't sail vs. steam, the issue is wooden vessels. And it's just as wooden as its opponents.

Derek Pullem · Jan 28, 2013

Elfwine said:
What's the basis for the idea that it's sides are any thicker than a conventional vessel?

The hull seems to be up to 4-5 ft thick compared to 18"-24" of a man of war according to wiki. Have my doubts that this is uniform but then again design documentation for the vessel isn't exactly to hand

RamscoopRaider · Jan 28, 2013

Derek Pullem said:
It's broadside is 6 32pdr compared to 14 32 pdr (and assorted others) in a standard 74 man of war. The man of war would need to close to about 100 yards before being able to penetrate the Demologus' armour - it is not invulnerable

There are also the heavier carronades which although they would not penetrate could do considereable damage by momentum alone (consider afore mentioned heated shot being carried to the guns when hit by one or two 68 pounder shell travelling at 750-1000 fps.)

You mean 12 32pdr (carried 26 1 fore, 1 aft, 12 each broadside)

Effectively it is, it won't be facing the broadside guns unless the captain is an idiot, nor will it close the range to 100 yards unless the same is true

This is a steamship, it can maneuver against the wind and current to get the best arcs of fire and avoid counterfire

A bit awkward but to be honest less dangerous than the fort itself - which man of war were well used to bombarding.

Except that forts don't move, this does

You can avoid a fort's most dangerous arcs of fire in a ship, and you can ensure your broadside is pointed at the fort at all times

Can't do that easily with an opposing steamship

Mind you this won't be singlehandedly destroying fleets but it will be a nasty handful to anything less than one

Derek Pullem · Jan 28, 2013

RamscoopRaider said:
You mean 12 32pdr (carried 26 1 fore, 1 aft, 12 each broadside)

Effectively it is, it won't be facing the broadside guns unless the captain is an idiot, nor will it close the range to 100 yards unless the same is true

This is a steamship, it can maneuver against the wind and current to get the best arcs of fire and avoid counterfireExcept that forts don't move, this does

You can avoid a fort's most dangerous arcs of fire in a ship, and you can ensure your broadside is pointed at the fort at all times

Can't do that easily with an opposing steamship

Mind you this won't be singlehandedly destroying fleets but it will be a nasty handful to anything less than one

Data I saw suggested 16 guns (2 aft, 2 fore and six each side) in total

It's "movement" was limited to circa five knots - I doubt that there are many occasions when the British would seek to engage a coastal fort (and Demologos) in a flat calm. In which case I would suggest that the men of war and considerably MORE maneuverable in most situations

RamscoopRaider · Jan 28, 2013

Derek Pullem said:
Data I saw suggested 16 guns (2 aft, 2 fore and six each side) in total

It's "movement" was limited to circa five knots - I doubt that there are many occasions when the British would seek to engage a coastal fort (and Demologos) in a flat calm. In which case I would suggest that the men of war and considerably MORE maneuverable in most situations

Wiki says 16 now and used to say 26, some say 24, others 20, really inconsistent there, most drawings look like 20

Faster yes, more maneuverable no, the steamship would have a tighter turning radius, no need to worry about her rigging and could sail against wind and current, which in a confined inshore environment would be invaluable

Elfwine · Jan 28, 2013

RamscoopRaider said:
Wiki says 16 now and used to say 26, some say 24, others 20, really inconsistent there, most drawings look like 20

Faster yes, more maneuverable no, the steamship would have a tighter turning radius, no need to worry about her rigging and could sail against wind and current, which in a confined inshore environment would be invaluable

http://bob.plord.net/Ships/Period1/UnitedStates/Demologos.html

This says 24, for what it's worth.

And not sure it would necessarily have a tighter turning radius in any useful sense in practice.

Sailing against the wind and current isn't enough to make up for being sluggish and underarmed.

Could it do some nasty damage? Sure. But it's one ship, a reasonably prepared (as opposed to caught by total surprise) squadron can smash it.

RamscoopRaider · Jan 28, 2013

Elfwine said:
http://bob.plord.net/Ships/Period1/UnitedStates/Demologos.html

This says 24, for what it's worth.

And not sure it would necessarily have a tighter turning radius in any useful sense in practice.

Sailing against the wind and current isn't enough to make up for being sluggish and underarmed.

Could it do some nasty damage? Sure. But it's one ship, a reasonably prepared (as opposed to caught by total surprise) squadron can smash it.

Realistically its sluggishness matters little under most conditions, it lacks the 60-100 degree no go zone any sailing ship has (more like 80-100 on a large warship)

Even in conditions with wind this is a huge advantage, the steamer always has a way out and a way of dictating the engagement despite having a theoretically lower speed (not always the case)

With light or no wind the vessel could pick apart an opposing squadron of sailing ships at will, move in, cross T, fire hot shot until enemy strikes or catches fire, move out and repeat

Elfwine · Jan 28, 2013

RamscoopRaider said:
Realistically its sluggishness matters little under most conditions, it lacks the 60-100 degree no go zone any sailing ship has (more like 80-100 on a large warship)

Even in conditions with wind this is a huge advantage, the steamer always has a way out and a way of dictating the engagement despite having a theoretically lower speed (not always the case)

With light or no wind the vessel could pick apart an opposing squadron of sailing ships at will, move in, cross T, fire hot shot until enemy strikes or catches fire, move out and repeat

That is vastly easier said than done, because its sluggishness is going to limit its effective maneuvering even if theoretically it doesn't have a no go zone as you put it.

And dictating the engagement - since it has to close to the same range as its opponents to fire, that's not really going to mean much against someone actually prepared for an attacker.

So with light or no wind - steam in, fire, watch the enemy shipS maneuver, try to determine how to deal with multiple enemy ships firing at it.

And I don't see it firing hot shot so easily as you do. It's still a wooden vessel - even if it has boilers prepared to do this, any fire on any wooden vessel is potentially a problem.

Plus, any plan based on the superior power of steam requires the engines to work. That's not a 100% given. It may not even be a reliable given.

RamscoopRaider · Jan 28, 2013

Elfwine said:
That is vastly easier said than done, because its sluggishness is going to limit its effective maneuvering even if theoretically it doesn't have a no go zone as you put it.

And dictating the engagement - since it has to close to the same range as its opponents to fire, that's not really going to mean much against someone actually prepared for an attacker.

So with light or no wind - steam in, fire, watch the enemy shipS maneuver, try to determine how to deal with multiple enemy ships firing at it.

And I don't see it firing hot shot so easily as you do. It's still a wooden vessel - even if it has boilers prepared to do this, any fire on any wooden vessel is potentially a problem.

Plus, any plan based on the superior power of steam requires the engines to work. That's not a 100% given. It may not even be a reliable given.

It does not have to close the range as much as its opponents, it has 2-3 times as much effective protection, 21 inches could provide minor protection from 12 and 18 pounders, it has 60 inches

Maneuvering a wooden ship is a tedious and time consuming process, especially if there is no wind, it could take minutes to change headings even with the wind, and without wind they have to kedge or use boats which takes even longer, assuming the vessels are close enough for mutual support to begin with

The ship was designed for using hot shot, wooden vessels not designed for the task used it (though it was contrary to standing RN practice), the practice is dangerous, but having the fire is the most dangerous part and that was taken care of by virtue of being a steam ship, Edit: Of course not every crew would use Red Hot Shot, only the best, the others would merely use regular fire to keep heads down

I'm assuming the engine is deciding to work that particular day, if not there is no battle as the thing is sitting in port getting repaired,

Elfwine · Jan 28, 2013

RamscoopRaider said:
It does not have to close the range as much as its opponents, it has 2-3 times as much effective protection, 21 inches could provide minor protection from 12 and 18 pounders, it has 60 inches

It has to close the range just as much to use its guns effectively as they do versus normal targets. Standing off at a distance is going to limit the effectiveness of its gunnery just as much as a normal ship standing off would.

Maneuvering a wooden ship is a tedious and time consuming process, especially if there is no wind, it could take minutes to change headings even with the wind, and without wind they have to kedge or use boats which takes even longer, assuming the vessels are close enough for mutual support to begin with

And this can hardly turn on a dime itself.

The ship was designed for using hot shot, wooden vessels not designed for the task used it (though it was contrary to standing RN practice), the practice is dangerous, but having the fire is the most dangerous part and that was taken care of by virtue of being a steam ship

I'm assuming the engine is deciding to work that day, if not there is no battle as the thing is sitting in port getting repaired,

No, that is not taken care of by virtue of being a steam ship. Wooden steam ships catch on fire too.

And the engine might well break down in midfight, that's the problem. Either out of orneriness or from damage.

Frankly, it looks like something that would punch harder than expected and turn out to be an interesting experiment rather than a supership capable of destroying anything in sight.

RamscoopRaider · Jan 28, 2013

Elfwine said:
It has to close the range just as much to use its guns effectively as they do versus normal targets. Standing off at a distance is going to limit the effectiveness of its gunnery just as much as a normal ship standing off would.

And this can hardly turn on a dime itself.

No, that is not taken care of by virtue of being a steam ship. Wooden steam ships catch on fire too.

And the engine might well break down in midfight, that's the problem. Either out of orneriness or from damage.

Frankly, it looks like something that would punch harder than expected and turn out to be an interesting experiment rather than a supership capable of destroying anything in sight.

Yes it will reduce its effectiveness, however its opponents effectiveness will be reduced more, at long range they cannot hurt it, and it can still slightly hurt them

True but it can maneuver much better than a pure sailing vessel, and that's what matters

Yes wooden steam ships catch on fire, that risk would be much the same whether it is using Red Hot shot or not, the fire would still be there to heat the boiler whether or not it would be using Red Shot or not (the only added risk is someone dropping the shot and not recovering it quick, wood takes time to catch fire and there would be preventative measures in place, or the gun bursting, but that doesn't usually set fires)

As for reliability, yeah that's a problem, but one that can be mitigated by overhauling the thing before each use

I never said it was invincible, merely that under certain conditions it would be a nightmare (I save the invincible super ship version of this for my ASB TL)