The Massive War for the Falkland Islands

This challenge is pretty simple. How big can the war over the Falklands possibly be?

With a POD after 1945, How much can one wank out both the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Argentine Republic to make the war over the Falklands as big as possible, but WITHOUT involving ANY OTHER COUNTRIES. This is too easy if Britain can call on the United States for help.

How wild could it get? Argentina striking mainland Britain is ASB, but could they mount an attack on Ascension Island? What about Argentina having better ASW abilities and causing problems for British SSNs and SSKs? Or having both of its Colossus class aircraft carriers? Or how about Sea Harriers for the Argentinian Navy? Or a more advanced Argentine Air Force?

On the flip side, could Britain have brought a full carrier to the fight? Or more than one? If so, with what aircraft? Could the Tiger class have been used to back up the Royal Marines? Or maybe Britain keeps some bigger-gunned ships around in a reserve fleet long enough to call 'em back? What about a bomber fleet and supporting tankers? TSR.2s? F-111Ks? Greater involvement by the V-bomber fleet?

Hell, considering Britain had nuclear weapons and Argentina was trying to develop them, could that war see the third nuclear bomb used in anger?

Other than the above conditions, there is no limits to this. If you can have Britain land heavy divisions in the Falklands and blow the Argentines to hell, that's usable. If you can have Argentina or Britain use covert actions against the other nation's home territory, that's OK too. Have at it, guys, and may God help us all.
 
This challenge is pretty simple. How big can the war over the Falklands possibly be?

With a POD after 1945, How much can one wank out both the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Argentine Republic to make the war over the Falklands as big as possible, but WITHOUT involving ANY OTHER COUNTRIES. This is too easy if Britain can call on the United States for help.

How wild could it get? Argentina striking mainland Britain is ASB, but could they mount an attack on Ascension Island? What about Argentina having better ASW abilities and causing problems for British SSNs and SSKs? Or having both of its Colossus class aircraft carriers? Or how about Sea Harriers for the Argentinian Navy? Or a more advanced Argentine Air Force?

On the flip side, could Britain have brought a full carrier to the fight? Or more than one? If so, with what aircraft? Could the Tiger class have been used to back up the Royal Marines? Or maybe Britain keeps some bigger-gunned ships around in a reserve fleet long enough to call 'em back? What about a bomber fleet and supporting tankers? TSR.2s? F-111Ks? Greater involvement by the V-bomber fleet?

Hell, considering Britain had nuclear weapons and Argentina was trying to develop them, could that war see the third nuclear bomb used in anger?

Other than the above conditions, there is no limits to this. If you can have Britain land heavy divisions in the Falklands and blow the Argentines to hell, that's usable. If you can have Argentina or Britain use covert actions against the other nation's home territory, that's OK too. Have at it, guys, and may God help us all.

I find it hard to see the US and NATO NOT becoming involved in a MAJOR Falklands War. Especially if nukes are on the table..
 
I'll have a little go, but I don't know the economic situation of the respective countries at the time, so i'll write something up over the next couple of hours and then post it.

If its any good, you guys can give me a critique and i'll see if I can make it more realistic.

Wont necessarily be as "major" as you want though.

I'll try work out some alternate forces first, then if its doable I can go from there. :p
 
Argentine Navy

Carriers
ARA Veinticinco de Mayo (ex- HMS Venerable)
ARA Independencia(II) (ex- HMCS Bonaventure)

Reasoning: Purchasing Bonaventure ~1970 gets a second upgraded carrier at a fairl bargain basement price.
Armament Change: Can an upgrade to Sea Cat SAM’s or some other LW SAM system be justified?


Cruisers
ARA General Belgrano (ex-USS Phoenix)
ARA Nueve de Julio (ex-USS Boise)
ARA Garibaldi (ex-US Cleveland class)
ARA San Martin (ex-US Cleveland class)

Destroyers
Want to keep numbers same as OTL here (or close to). Should the MEKO 360’s be kept or switched for T42’s for a total of 6?
ARA Admirante Brown (Earlier entry to service)
ARA La Argentina (as above)
ARA Heroina (as above)
ARA Sarandi (as above)
ARA Hercules (OTL T42 B1)
ARA Santisima Trinidad (OTL T42 B1)
ARA Segui (Sumner class)
ARA Bouchard (Sumner class)
ARA Piedra Buena (Sumner class)

Corvettes
They received three D'Estienne d'Orves class corvettes/sloops in the late 70’s, early 80’s, i’d rather increase numbers of these then add to overall destroyer numbers, I’ve already given them an extra two cruisers.

Submarines (Type 209)
ARA Salta
ARA San Luis
ARA Santa Cruz
ARA San Juan
ARA Santa Fe
ARA Santiago del Estero

Let me know what you think. If this sounds ok, i'll go have fun with the RN, wont be anything like a fair fight though, since all the RN has to do is not decommission a few ships.....

After the RN is done i'll try do a Falklands war timeline.
 

Archibald

Banned
Probably border ASB but... whatif Argentina and Brazil made a kind of "pact" and went to war together -
- Argentina against Great Britain over the Falklands
- Brazil against France over French Guyana
Broder ASB, sure. But at least you have plenty of aircraft carriers in the battle
- Foch / Clemenceau / Hermes / Ark Royal / Invincible
- Minas Gerais / 25 de mayo / Independencia

Should make a huge aeronaval battle, complete with Crusaders, sea Harriers and Phantoms facing Mirage IIIs...
 

Riain

Banned
For me Britain is easy, its my Britwank on a budget with a few extras thrown in. Extras like an aircraft and automitive industry not shafted by govt interference, instead with an obsession on the balance of payments govt push for successful procuts, back them and pushes for their sale. Similarly Britain does well in Suez in 1956 so was a serious player in the Mid East in the 60s, British decline has not been traumatic and she has some influence throughout the world and a reasonable market share for her products.

Argentina is a problem, I know very little about her in order to make her more powerful. Lets assume that she does a bit better throughout the period, and perhaps avoids the Dirty War. As such US support was more forthcoming during the 70s; the 2 Neptunes were replaced by 5 P3Bs, 11 A7As replaced the 9 Canberras. Agrentina was able to acquire a few more Mirages and Israel gave them an update to fire the Python and fitted IFR probes, in fact all air force jets were fitted with IFR and 3 707s were purchased and converted into tankers by Israel. The Navy is receiving etenards and exocets in 1982 and in general is gabbing bits and pieces of equipment wherever it can.

The cassus belli is similar to OTL, a Junta takes power in late 1981, civil unrest ensues and looking for a Red Harring to distract the populace jumps on the scrap metal merchants on south Georgia. But Britain makes some strong pronouncements so the Junta bides its time, and quickly gahters more equipment. On the 24th May the invasion fleet for op Rosario sets sails and lands forces on the Falklands before dawn on the 25th. The Argentines awake to the news that the Malivinas are in the process of being liberated, which becomes a reality by late morning May 25th, Argentina's national day!
 
Doesn't still have to be 1982, does it? Because there are many incidents that might have blown up.

My favourite one would have to be the radicals who hijacked an Argentine aeroplane in 1966 and flew it to Stanley, clipping telegraph poles as they tried to find a landing strip, unaware there wasn't one, before landing on the racecourse. They were bemused that instead of the indigenes they'd come to 'liberate', there were bemused non-Spanish-speaking Falklanders.

Now let's say the 'plane actually crashes. Argentina cries foul and claims the 'plane was shot down by the FIDF, invades. The much more numerous and less technologically-advanced RN of this time sends a large task force. Large formations of V-Bombers are flown in from Belize/British Guiana/Guyana...
 
Probably border ASB but... whatif Argentina and Brazil made a kind of "pact" and went to war together -
- Argentina against Great Britain over the Falklands
- Brazil against France over French Guyana
Broder ASB, sure. But at least you have plenty of aircraft carriers in the battle
- Foch / Clemenceau / Hermes / Ark Royal / Invincible
- Minas Gerais / 25 de mayo / Independencia

Should make a huge aeronaval battle, complete with Crusaders, sea Harriers and Phantoms facing Mirage IIIs...

French Guyana is not the Falklands islands where lived around 3 000 british. French Guyana is the home of more than 220K french citizens and it have the Kourou spacebase.

After the invasion, a bloody one because in French Guyana, you have at least two or three regiment including one of Foreign Legion specialized in jungle warfare and France had additionnal troops in the Carribean in the Gaudeloupe and Martinique oversea departements.

The situation will be simple, France will send an ultimatum with a clear mention of use of nuclear weapons...

During any Cold War simulation even if both NATO and the Warsaw Pact don't use any WMD, the independance of France and its nuclear possibilities were always a kind of maverick...
 

Riain

Banned
Britain is stuck in a difficult position, there are no fleet units in a good position to strike back immediately at the Argentines on the Falklands. To gather a fleet from the available units and send it south will take a month, arriving right in the southern winter when flying operations from ships will be impossible most days. However this invastion is a national affront to Britain and the people demand a response, in addition Britains prestige has taken a blow and many of Britains internatial alliance relationships could be adversly affected if the prestige is not restored. Thus British diplomacy is left to spin its wheels, but the British govt decides to conduct a military buildup in the south atlantic to increase diplomatic pressure.

Argentina also is backed into a corner by the invasions own domestic success and great boost in prestige internationally and decides to launch a follow-up blow. The 25 de Mayo and her escort sail toward Ascesion Island where a British military buildup is occuring, in a surpise dawn attack her Skyhawks attack the airfield and destroy 7 British aircraft on the ground and kill two dozen British personnel. Argentinas international prestige soars while Britain's plummets, however Britains diplomacy and military strategy changes and Britain publicly anounces that Argentina had raised the limits of the conflict far beyond what Britain believed was possible and that Britain and Argentina are in a state of declared war.

Britain rushes troops to St Helena, Tristan da Cunha and Gough to defend the islands and sets up listening stations and navigation beacons. Ascension is packed with aircraft while ships achor offshore. In the Falklands the Argentines work to lengthen the runway to 5500' and fit arrestor gear, improve other airstrips and deploy an array of defensive equipment such as truck launched exocets, shore guns, anti-aircraft defences etc. At home their forces train furiously for the expected confrontation with the British when they arrive in the southern summer.

A week after the Ascension raid the British strike back at Aergentina. A pair of Vulcans, one armed with 21 cluster bombs and the other as a wild weasel with pre production ALARM anti-radar missiles and advanced ECM attack the Buenos Aires air force base, destoying several aircraft, killing dozens of personnel and causing extensive damage as well as destroying 2 radars with ALARMs. Upon receipt of the codeword the HMS Splendid attacks and sinks the Argenitne naval support ship she was shadowing near Sth Georgia. A government press release that morning points out that Argentina as a long coastline adn that the Vuclan force is equipped with a variety of stand-off weapons and could attack targets on or near the coast without running afoul of the 22 or so Mirages the Argentines have. As a result the Argentines redeploy their navy to the south and the air force inland to remove it from the reach of the Vulcans. However the RN sinks a destroyer during this move and RAF Vulcans bomb Trelew airfield and damage the runway with durandal anti runway bombs and damage the facilities with cluster bombs.
 
Argentina also is backed into a corner by the invasions own domestic success and great boost in prestige internationally and decides to launch a follow-up blow. The 25 de Mayo and her escort sail toward Ascesion Island where a British military buildup is occuring, in a surpise dawn attack her Skyhawks attack the airfield and destroy 7 British aircraft on the ground and kill two dozen British personnel. Argentinas international prestige soars while Britain's plummets, however Britains diplomacy and military strategy changes and Britain publicly anounces that Argentina had raised the limits of the conflict far beyond what Britain believed was possible and that Britain and Argentina are in a state of declared war.

Ascension Island was a US satellite tracking station - any attack would carry a very high risk of completely aligning the US with the UK (which is why any attack on Ascension Island was never considered by the Argentines).
 

Riain

Banned
Ascension Island was a US satellite tracking station - any attack would carry a very high risk of completely aligning the US with the UK (which is why any attack on Ascension Island was never considered by the Argentines).

Reason and responsibility wasn't a strong suit of the Junta. When questioned about the liklihood of a British response to the invasion Galtieri andswer was "That gringo woman will do nothing." That to me doesn't indicate the most secure grasp on international statemanship.
 
Did he actually call her a 'gringo'? Wow. I've always thought that's quite an odd insult from a country that, at least then, prided itself as the 'Most European country in South America'. And this from a man who resembled George Patton...
 

Riain

Banned
He said it to his close circle of people, and that was the end of the discussion! There was no 'but what if she does?' or anything. Now that's confidence.
 

Warsie

Banned
Did he actually call her a 'gringo'? Wow. I've always thought that's quite an odd insult from a country that, at least then, prided itself as the 'Most European country in South America'. And this from a man who resembled George Patton...

Gringo = foreigner which apparently is used in the context of other Latin countries. Not really racial
 
Did he actually call her a 'gringo'? Wow. I've always thought that's quite an odd insult from a country that, at least then, prided itself as the 'Most European country in South America'. And this from a man who resembled George Patton...

Leopoldo Galtieri was not the most forward-thinking of individuals, it seems.

Anyways, I had an idea in mind, and this is it:

Great Britain
The United Kingdom is nearly bankrupt in 1945, and very much forced to live off of its wits regardless of this, Britain's status as the least damaged of the nations of Western Europe gives them an opening to advance its own goals and technology. Recognizing that their economic position will not last forever, the United Kingdom focuses all of its resources on excellence in technical and industrial fields, figuring (quite rightly) that they have to get an advantage while they can. They do well at this almost from the start. Britain's heavy industry is rebuilt with many modern facilities to replace ones worn out or destroyed by the war, in most fields. Britain's first giant aerospace coup is the Vickers V-1000, which is introduces the world to the jet airliner in 1955. The V-1000 and the smaller De Havilland Comet (which always has round windows ITTL) prove to be very successful, with the two aircraft selling a combined total of 1,617 units between 1955 and 1977. Britain's auto and shipbuilding industries are the same, and after the Suez Crisis, investment in nuclear energy and synthetic crude, making oil from Britain's abundant coalfields, leads to Great Britain's economy being over 25% bigger than OTL by 1980 - and the exports and reduced social costs from lower unemployment make Britain have a much, much better balance of payments situation, too.

Post-war, Britain draws down considerably. All of their battleships are scrapped save Vanguard, which becomes a museum. Blake, Lion and Tiger are kept, as the other cruisers are sold, scrapped or made into Museums. The RAF buys wholeheartedly into the jet age, though propeller-driven patrol aircraft remain in the RAF for many years to come. The first major development for the RAF is shortly after the war - The V-Bombers. The successes of Britain's aircraft industry means the Valiant is never built, and the the Avro Vulcan and Handley-Page Victor are the V-bomber force, with 85 Vulcans and 60 Victors built and operational by 1960. The cancellation of the Skybolt, however, tosses the idea of using bombers - but instead, the RAF plan to use the Vulcan as a tactical strike weapon and the Victor as a bombtruck, with both of them fitted with RR Spey engines and external hardpoints, while the Victor uses its anti-shock bodies as additional mounting points for 1000-pound bombs. Thus built, the TSR.2 is never made. 48 F-111Ks are bought in the late 1960s, fitted with RR Conway engines and British electronics. Combined with its fleet of V-1000 Tankers, the RAF remains capable of striking nearly anywhere in the world for a long time.

The RN focuses on its carriers. The fleet by the 1960s had narrowed to large carriers Ark Royal and Eagle, and smaller carriers Victorious, Hermes and Centaur. Victorious is sold to the Royal Australian Navy in 1969 and Bulwark is sold to the Royal Canadian Navy in 1971, but the end result is that Ark Royal and Eagle get major overhauls in the 1960s, while Hermes and Centaur are rebuilt as Victorious was. These four carriers are joined in 1981 by HMS Invincible, which is pretty much as OTL, followed by HMS Victorious (OTL's Ark Royal) and HMS Illustrious. The submarine fleet goes pretty much as OTL, and four Type 82s are built to escort the Ark Royal and Eagle, but with double-ended Sea Dart systems and a helicopter pad, classified as a light cruiser. A number of Type 42s are built as well, and the
Type 21 and Type 22 pretty much follow OTL, though in larger numbers. Two Type 23s are ordered earlier and are in service soon enough to serve in the Falklands War. The RN buys largely the same aircraft as OTL, with Phantom FGR.1 and Buccaneer S.2 for strike duties. The Buccs also serve from the Hermes and Centaur, joined in 1980 by the Sea Harrier, which is fitted with the Blue Vixen radar and for Skyflash missiles right from the start. The last large guns left in the RN, the Tigers live on for some time, all three still in use into the 1980s.

Argentina

In the aftermath of WWII, Argentina's position as being a supplier of the allies with foodstuffs and resources does not go unrewarded, despite the fact that Juan Peron was not much of a friend to others. Argentina's economy grows steadily throughout the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, ending up about 50% above OTL by the early 1980s.

Salvador Allende's rise to lead Chile in 1970 is followed by a failed coup against him by General Augusto Pinochet in the fall of 1971. Disgusted, Allende turns to the East, doing a deal to work with the Soviet Union. The USSR eagerly joins this, as they want more friendly, resource-rich countries. A shocked US backstops Argentina, knowing that the two nations haven't been real friends in a while. Argentina's armed forces are soon taking in considerable quantities of American equipment, and despite alternating back and forth with civilian and military governments through the 1950s through the 1970s, Argentina's armed forces take over in 1981, sensing growing leftist tendencies and not wanting the same fate as Chile. Included in the new equipment is the 1971 Naval Shipbuilding and Construction plan, which after pressure from the West orders four Spruance-class destroyers from the United States and four Type 42 destroyers from the UK, as well as eight of the smaller MEKO 360H2 ships, which Argentina originally classes as Destroyers, though they are, in fact, sized closer to frigates.

Argentina acquires two aircraft carriers in the late 1960s - ARA Independencia and ARA Veinticinco de Mayo. Both are old British Colossus class aircraft carriers, but both are fitted with powerful 1200psi steam turbines during extensive early 1970s refits. These are equipped with F-8E fighters originally, though they are overhauled with supercritical wings (based on the NASA TF-8E design) and J79 turbojets starting in 1978. Tracker ASW aircraft and Sea King helicopters are also used on the two small carriers, with each one having an air wing of 26 aircraft, 16 of them the souped-up F-8 fighters. The Argentines also acquire four ex-USN light cruisers over the years. Two are taken out of service in 1978 but returned to operation in 1982. All are fitted with Sea Sparrow SAMs in early 1980s refits.

Following the end of Vietnam and the Americans' wish to boost the Argentines against the Chileans, the US transfers over some 60 F-4 Phantoms in 1973, along with Sparrow missiles for them. Three E-2C Hawkeyes are purchased in 1978. The Canberra bombers are still in use, and additional units are procured from several countries, including Australia and the UK itself. Argentine Canberras are also used to carry missiles, and are fitted to carry Exocet anti-ship missiles and dumb bombs. The Argentines and Brazilians co-operate on a military transport program which creates the Embraer/FMA C-390 transport, which complements the FAA's fleet of C-130 Hercules transport planes.

The War itself begins with civil unrest brewing in Argentina in late 1983. Two years of Junta rule have not been kind. The Dirty War never happens, but the military is attacking people they view as dissidents, and its not making life easy for them. Knowing that, and despite an economy which is starting to come back, Argentina starts plotting out using its armed forces to claim the Falkland Islands, claims that have stood since the early 1800s. On April 17, 1984, Argentina strikes, invading the Falkland Islands. A small British garrison there is badly overwhelmed, though they put up a stiffer fight than the Argentines had anticipated.

The Argentines had figured that Britain would not respond to this, and deployed its entire Navy to attempt to make sure of it. Argentine engineers quickly get to work expanding the airport at Stanley, and they expand Stanley's runway to 7000 feet to allow Phantoms to operate from it, though the tanker aircraft, ex-Aerolineas Argentinas Boeing 707-320 and 747-100 aircraft, have to operate from the mainland. The Argentines use their Hawkeye AWACS aircraft and their Dagger and Mirage IIIEA fighters to back up the Phantoms. The Navy is divided into three groups, and ASW exercises are run regularly to make sure the Argentines are up to speed on hunting British submarines.

It doesn't take long for Britain to realize the problems they face - but Prime Minister Thatcher won't budge, and with four carriers and a fleet of bombers at their disposal, Thatcher figures it can be done. The Royal Navy doesn't question this, and neither do the RAF or the Royal Marines. The Royal Navy is assembled, and HMCS Challenger, Canada's light aircraft carrier, takes over operations in the North Atlantic to allow HMS Ark Royal to go with the mission force. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France and the United States offer direct assistance, though Britain thinks they can handle it on their own. The Task Force for the Falklands sails on April 28, 1984, with three-quarters of the entire RN in on it. Eagle is the flagship, with Ark Royal, Hermes, Centaur and Illustrious on the task as well. Ark Royal and Eagle carry seventeen each of Phantom FGR.1s and Buccaneer S.2s, along with two E-2C Hawkeyes, three Gannets (one for COD and the other two for electronic warfare) and nine Sea King helicopters. Hermes and Centaur are carrying twelve each of Buccaneer S.2s and Sea Harriers, two Hawkeyes and six helicopters. Illustrious is just using the Sea Harrier, though its carries 22 of them. The chief escort ships are light cruisers Tiger, Lion and Blake, with each carrier being assigned a Type 82 light cruiser for air defense. Illustrious travels with the amphibious force behind the main body, and the British carriers head first to deal with the Argentine armed forces.

More to come......
 
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