WI: Hussites triumphant?

Zioneer · Oct 1, 2011

So I asked about this around a year ago, and I figured it'd be okay to ask about it again.

Anyway, is there any way to make the Bohemian Hussites more successful? Can a PoD be arranged to allow the Hussites to exist longer than they did in OTL? Can they spread to other nations besides Bohemia? What has to be done to arrange for any of these things?

Jasen777 · Oct 1, 2011

The obvious P.O.D. would appear to be for the Utraquists and Taborites to be able to come to a lasting theological and political agreement. This division allowed Catholic forces to play them off against one another. This frankly might not be all that realistic and may need an earlier P.O.D of Huss avoiding execution in 1415.

The fallout of anything like that could be immense.

Zioneer · Oct 1, 2011

Jasen777 said:
The obvious P.O.D. would appear to be for the Utraquists and Taborites to be able to come to a lasting theological and political agreement. This division allowed Catholic forces to play them off against one another. This frankly might not be all that realistic and may need an earlier P.O.D of Huss avoiding execution in 1415.

The fallout of anything like that could be immense.

Hmm... That could work, but I'm not sure how I could get the Utraquists and Taborites to agree on doctrine or politics.

How about a PoD of Jan Zizka being successful in suppressing the Taborites? Or was he more inclined towards the Taborites himself?

Last time I asked about the Hussites, I had the idea of Zizka living longer and being elected King/Lord Protector of Bohemia or somesuch; would that work?

I want to know more about the Hussites, but I honestly don't know much; where would I get more details about them?

Zioneer · Oct 1, 2011

Oh yeah, sorry for the double-post, but another question; I know Joan of Arc threatened to lead a crusade against the Hussites; what would be the effect if she lived another 10-20 years and wanted to undertake a "Czech Crusade"?

Space Oddity · Oct 1, 2011

Charles VII chuckles fondly, and then suggests she go back to her farm. No way is the "Well-Served" going to expend men and money in Bohemia.

Jasen777 · Oct 1, 2011

MormonMobster said:
I want to know more about the Hussites, but I honestly don't know much; where would I get more details about them?

Your school library could have something useful. It's not an area I know much about either.

yourworstnightmare · Oct 1, 2011

MormonMobster said:
Hmm... That could work, but I'm not sure how I could get the Utraquists and Taborites to agree on doctrine or politics.

How about a PoD of Jan Zizka being successful in suppressing the Taborites? Or was he more inclined towards the Taborites himself?

Last time I asked about the Hussites, I had the idea of Zizka living longer and being elected King/Lord Protector of Bohemia or somesuch; would that work?

I want to know more about the Hussites, but I honestly don't know much; where would I get more details about them?

I don't know that much about it, but if Zizka suppressed the Taborites, wouldn't his power base wane. I thought he was a Taborite himself, and only split from them due to their reluctance of violence.

ctesiphon · Oct 1, 2011

MormonMobster said:
How about a PoD of Jan Zizka being successful in suppressing the Taborites? Or was he more inclined towards the Taborites himself?

He was their leader, so he's not going to suppress them.

Zioneer · Oct 1, 2011

Space Oddity said:
Charles VII chuckles fondly, and then suggests she go back to her farm. No way is the "Well-Served" going to expend men and money in Bohemia.

Well, I was thinking more of a scenario where Joan uses her fame (and perhaps a bit of fortune gained from sacking English territory on the continent) to create a rag-tag "People's Crusade" sort of force. Not authorized by King Charles or anything, just a disorganized mass of fighters.

Jasen777 said:
Your school library could have something useful. It's not an area I know much about either.

Probably not my school library (its a rather small school), but I suppose my city library will have something. I'll have to check my city library out for any Hussite books.

yourworstnightmare said:
I don't know that much about it, but if Zizka suppressed the Taborites, wouldn't his power base wane. I thought he was a Taborite himself, and only split from them due to their reluctance of violence.

I'm pretty sure the Taborites were the radical "kill the unbelievers" sort, and that Zizka split from them because they were too violent, even to a general. He might be able to start courting the Utraquists after a Taborite uprising or something like that.

ctesiphon said:
He was their leader, so he's not going to suppress them.

Fair enough; but as I said, he apparently left because the Taborites were becoming too radical, even for him. And either way, he was incredibly influential. Could he start courting the Utraquists and accidentally provoke an uprising from the Taborites?

Space Oddity · Oct 1, 2011

MormonMobster said:
Well, I was thinking more of a scenario where Joan uses her fame (and perhaps a bit of fortune gained from sacking English territory on the continent) to create a rag-tag "People's Crusade" sort of force. Not authorized by King Charles or anything, just a disorganized mass of fighters.

Then they get slaughtered. Assuming they even make it to Bohemia, as the Holy Roman Emperor and his various subject/allied Princes aren't going to want a bunch of nutty peasant crusaders traipsing through their land.

Zioneer · Oct 1, 2011

Space Oddity said:
Then they get slaughtered. Assuming they even make it to Bohemia, as the Holy Roman Emperor and his various subject/allied Princes aren't going to want a bunch of nutty peasant crusaders traipsing through their land.

Ah, alright, fair enough then. I won't include Joan of Arc in my TL, even though its so tempting to do so. Hmm... Wait, wasn't the King of Bohemia also the Holy Roman Emperor around that time? Could he just supply the peasant crusaders with weapons and food and let them go wild on the Hussites?

Meh, its not that important. I'm more focused on the problem of getting Bohemia to stay Hussite.

King Henry · Oct 1, 2011

I think the pre-Hussite king was a childless brother of the HER Sgismund, So when he finally won he gave himself the throne.

As an idea..maybe the king of Poland accepts the offer to become King of Bohemia, and allies with the ultraquists to crush the radicals?v

Space Oddity · Oct 1, 2011

MormonMobster said:
Ah, alright, fair enough then. I won't include Joan of Arc in my TL, even though its so tempting to do so. Hmm... Wait, wasn't the King of Bohemia also the Holy Roman Emperor around that time? Could he just supply the peasant crusaders with weapons and food and let them go wild on the Hussites?

Meh, its not that important. I'm more focused on the problem of getting Bohemia to stay Hussite.

Well, that would depend. Sigismund was HRE. Albert, his successor, was not. That stated--could Sigismund, for example, allow them through? Sure--but he'd be a fool to do so. Further, there's no guarantee the other Princes of the Empire would--in fact, they probably wouldn't because DAMN IT, it would be a bad idea. And again, if--miracle of miracles--they make it to Bohemia, the Hussites will slaughter them. These aren't a bunch of bumbling peasants--these are well-armed soldiers who regularly kick the asses of knights.

Zioneer · Oct 1, 2011

King Henry said:
I think the pre-Hussite king was a childless brother of the HER Sgismund, So when he finally won he gave himself the throne.

As an idea..maybe the king of Poland accepts the offer to become King of Bohemia, and allies with the ultraquists to crush the radicals?v

Hmm... Jogila, you mean? That could work, though there has to be a PoD that makes him change his mind. Maybe a secret deal between the Utraquists (and a Zizka disaffected with the Taborites) could be reached that lets Jogila/Wladyslaw take the throne if he suppresses the most dangerous of the Taborites and guarantees the religious freedom of the rest of the Hussites?

Or maybe Sigismund Korybut is accepted as king (maybe Jogila figures he can all but control Bohemia with his nephew as Bohemian king), and he utilizes the Utraquists and moderate Taborites (including Zizka again) to pacify the more radical Taborites, while facing an invasion from Emperor Sigismund?

EDIT: As for Joan of Arc, alright, I won't use her. Her inclusion was more of a Rule of Cool thing anyway. I might have her survive anyway and just send petulant, threatening letters to the Hussites.

Zioneer · Oct 2, 2011

Since its been about a day, I feel okay about bumping this. Especially since I have another question. If a ruler was asked by the Hussites to become ruler of Bohemia and promised to tolerate them, would a crusade be called on him?

Also, since the Hussite Wars were not only a religious conflict but something like a nationalist war, how would the Czechs in general respond to a foreigner Lithuanian/Pole ruling over them?

Elfwine · Oct 2, 2011

MormonMobster said:
Since its been about a day, I feel okay about bumping this. Especially since I have another question. If a ruler was asked by the Hussites to become ruler of Bohemia and promised to tolerate them, would a crusade be called on him?

Also, since the Hussite Wars were not only a religious conflict but something like a nationalist war, how would the Czechs in general respond to a foreigner Lithuanian/Pole ruling over them?

My semi-educated guesses:

1) Yes. Whether anyone would care is another story.

2) Probably relatively well. As I recall, it was an anti-German sort of thing, rather than anti-foreign - so a Pole or Lithuanian foreigner is probably acceptable. Once the passions and irrational parts settle out, that is.

Zioneer · Oct 2, 2011

Elfwine said:
My semi-educated guesses:

1) Yes. Whether anyone would care is another story.

2) Probably relatively well. As I recall, it was an anti-German sort of thing, rather than anti-foreign - so a Pole or Lithuanian foreigner is probably acceptable. Once the passions and irrational parts settle out, that is.

Excellent. Now, just a few more questions (not specifically for you, but before I start writing in earnest:

1. I don't like the name Sigismund for a Czech ruler (especially since the Hussites are fighting against a man with that name), so what would be an good name for Sigismund Korybut (I decided on him, since Jogila would probably be too busy dealing with the Poles and Lithuanians to gain the crown)? I'm looking at Ottokar (since Ottokar II is only two centuries previous), Weneclaus, and Borivoj, but I'm willing to look at other names?

2. If Ziska lives, will he be loyal to the foreign king? He seems to have been a rather independent fellow.

3. Could Emperor Sigismund get extra help from groups opposed to the Poles/Lithuanians, like the Teutonic Knights and others? Besides the Teutons, and the Emperor, who would have much to gain from attacking the Hussites?

4. Could traveling Hussite preachers act as "fifth columns" in neighboring lands?

5. What would happen if Emperor Sigismund died on the field of battle against the Hussites? What if he was captured?

6. Regarding in-fighting among the Hussites, could some of the more radical sects seek to carve out their own state either in Bohemia or nearby lands?

7. Finally, what happens to the major Czech nobles who stay Catholic? I don't know what happened to them, were they executed by the Hussites, or did they flee to the Catholic powers? Could some of them lead an invasion army to regain their lost lands?

Elfwine · Oct 2, 2011

MormonMobster said:
Excellent. Now, just a few more questions (not specifically for you, but before I start writing in earnest:

1. I don't like the name Sigismund for a Czech ruler (especially since the Hussites are fighting against a man with that name), so what would be an good name for Sigismund Korybut (I decided on him, since Jogila would probably be too busy dealing with the Poles and Lithuanians to gain the crown)? I'm looking at Ottokar (since Ottokar II is only two centuries previous), Weneclaus, and Borivoj, but I'm willing to look at other names?

I'd go with Ottokar (Otakar) unless that's seen as too German, in which case Weneclaus (Václav).

2. If Ziska lives, will he be loyal to the foreign king? He seems to have been a rather independent fellow.

Probably. But he'll probably also be a pain in the neck. Depends on what he thinks of the king, really.

3. Could Emperor Sigismund get extra help from groups opposed to the Poles/Lithuanians, like the Teutonic Knights and others? Besides the Teutons, and the Emperor, who would have much to gain from attacking the Hussites?

Not really anyone. Austria is on the Emperor's side, however, for what that's worth. And the Teutonic Knights are kind of weak right now, but they might pitch in.

4. Could traveling Hussite preachers act as "fifth columns" in neighboring lands?

I doubt it, but its possible.

5. What would happen if Emperor Sigismund died on the field of battle against the Hussites? What if he was captured?

Someone else is elected, who decides that this isn't worth bothering with. If he's captured, he's in a very bad position in terms of his authority - both as emperor and in regards to Bohemia.

6. Regarding in-fighting among the Hussites, could some of the more radical sects seek to carve out their own state either in Bohemia or nearby lands?

I wouldn't rule it out.

7. Finally, what happens to the major Czech nobles who stay Catholic? I don't know what happened to them, were they executed by the Hussites, or did they flee to the Catholic powers? Could some of them lead an invasion army to regain their lost lands?

This I have no real idea on.

PhilippeO · Oct 3, 2011

> Anyway, is there any way to make the Bohemian Hussites more successful? Can a PoD be arranged to allow the Hussites to exist longer than they did in OTL? Can they spread to other nations besides Bohemia? What has to be done to arrange for any of these things?

Why not make failure of Council of Constance as a POD ? the Catholics will still busy with Three Pope instead to launch a crusade to Bohemia. Falkenberg did not go to Rome with Martin V, instead he continued to preach that Poles are Pagan and support war against them. Lithuania and Teutonic Knights have another round of war. And with Jan Hus alive, Taborist and Ultraquist probably more united. If Hussites victorious and survive for some time, they might spread to Hungary, especially Slowakia and Transvylvania.

Zioneer · Oct 3, 2011

PhilippeO said:
> Anyway, is there any way to make the Bohemian Hussites more successful? Can a PoD be arranged to allow the Hussites to exist longer than they did in OTL? Can they spread to other nations besides Bohemia? What has to be done to arrange for any of these things?

Why not make failure of Council of Constance as a POD ? the Catholics will still busy with Three Pope instead to launch a crusade to Bohemia. Falkenberg did not go to Rome with Martin V, instead he continued to preach that Poles are Pagan and support war against them. Lithuania and Teutonic Knights have another round of war. And with Jan Hus alive, Taborist and Ultraquist probably more united. If Hussites victorious and survive for some time, they might spread to Hungary, especially Slowakia and Transvylvania.

Well, Jan Hus living basically entails him winning by default (if they're too busy to burn him at the stake, then he can go about his merry way in Bohemia), and if he wins, what's the incentive for him to form the Hussites instead of reforming the heck out of Czech Catholicism? (an analogy to this would be Martin Luther being left alone as Hus is, and reforming (but not splitting off from) Catholicism in his home region. Hus would have no incentive to be leader of a split-off religious movement if he lived.

I think if they have a powerful enough protector, the Hussites will spread to Hungary (and Poland for that matter) anyway, even without Jan Hus.