No fall of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, And No Fall of Kingdom of Judah

Oren_neu_dag

Hello all!
As an Israeli, a Jew, a Zionist, and a Sabra; I find myself at times daydreaming about what would the world look like if the People of Israel would have much more continuing pressence in the Land of Israel, and less exiles.


Thus, my TL is based on two POD:
  1. That the Northern Kingdom of Israel (in samaria) is not captured by Assyria in 722 BCE, and instead is being reunited with the Southern Kingdom of Judah, under the leadership of King Hezekiah
  2. That the Re-United Monarchy of Israel (after the re-union of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms) does indeed suffer from the exile of King Jeconiah, and looting of the temple by the Babylonians in 597 BCE; And yet they get somehow saved from the final Destruction of the Kingdom, and of the Temple, in 586 BCE. (which happened in OTL)
 

President Sam Houston

Interesting. Hope you get lots of participation on your TL. However, could a king of Judah like Hezakiah, unite all the tribes, especially the more northern ones, with Jerusalem being so far for them? Anyway, it would be interesting to see if a more powerful and unified Israel could have resisted the Persians, the Greeks, and then finally the Romans.

But since we associate the destruction of the Northern Kingdom with the ten lost tribes, if that event never occurred, then surely the population of the kingdom as a whole when the Persians came knocking would be much greater, with a military that could at least provide bargaining strength.

Also, does the fact that the temple was not destroyed mean that the Ark is still in the possession of the Temple priests? Because having God not only on your side could really make the difference in upcoming wars with the coming empires.
 

Hashasheen

Banned
Oren_neu_dag said:
Hello all!
As an Israeli, a Jew, a Zionist, and a Sabra; I find myself at times daydreaming about what would the world look like if the People of Israel would have much more continuing pressence in the Land of Israel, and less exiles.
Click to expand...
As an Arab, a Lebanese, A Moslem and someone who's suffered IDF bombings, I welcome you to the board. Check out my 1st TL if you have time, involves 2 Jewish nations, and David Bar Elias has a couple of Uber-Israel TL's done.

Thus, my TL is based on two POD:
  1. That the Northern Kingdom of Israel (in samaria) is not captured by Assyria in 722 BCE, and instead is being reunited with the Southern Kingdom of Judah, under the leadership of King Hezekiah
  2. That the Re-United Monarchy of Israel (after the re-union of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms) does indeed suffer from the exile of King Jeconiah, and looting of the temple by the Babylonians in 597 BCE; And yet they get somehow saved from the final Destruction of the Kingdom, and of the Temple, in 586 BCE. (which happened in OTL)
Click to expand...
Pretty sweet and original TL idea, but one thing you should always know, the earlier the PoD, the bigger the butterflies. A stronger Monarchy would have both the Davidic and Aaronite lines right? And is Jesus going to butterflied? What about the Persians, the Egyptians and the Greeks later on. A potentinal alliance with Carthaginians? a Jewish Cyprus? :D

Best of luck to you!
 

Mostlyharmless

Oren_neu_dag said:
Thus, my TL is based on two POD:
  1. That the Northern Kingdom of Israel (in samaria) is not captured by Assyria in 722 BCE, and instead is being reunited with the Southern Kingdom of Judah, under the leadership of King Hezekiah
Click to expand...
Perhaps it would be simpler to start just over a hundred earlier. If there was only one King Jehoram, then Israel and Judah were joined and in alliance with Sidon. They only need to decisively defeat that son of a nobody Hazael to take Damascus (and perhaps suppress a coup by Jehu) and you have recreated the block that stopped Assyria under Ahab.

Of course nobody but the archaeologists would be interested because they wouldn't have influenced the world's religions so extensively!
 

Oren_neu_dag

Hashasheen said:
As an Arab, a Lebanese, A Moslem and someone who's suffered IDF bombings, I welcome you to the board. Check out my 1st TL if you have time, involves 2 Jewish nations, and David Bar Elias has a couple of Uber-Israel TL's done.


Pretty sweet and original TL idea, but one thing you should always know, the earlier the PoD, the bigger the butterflies. A stronger Monarchy would have both the Davidic and Aaronite lines right? And is Jesus going to butterflied? What about the Persians, the Egyptians and the Greeks later on. A potentinal alliance with Carthaginians? a Jewish Cyprus? :D

Best of luck to you!
Click to expand...

First of all: Ahlan wa-Sahlan ya Jiri min al Shamal! - I am truly sorry that after all those years israelis and lebanese still suffer from prejudice and stupid hate. I (like most israelis that i know) have nothing against lebanon in itself, but only against those that used lebanon as a stage to attack us (whether it be the PLO in the 1980's, or Hezballah in the 2000's).

Second:i don't it would be correct and just of me to just make Jesus, Mohammad or every other important historical figure to "disappear" because of this ATL. it just would be wrong and two easy of me to do and thus it will create a fantasy land that it is not the point of this TL.

Third: "A Jewish Cyprus"?!!! At maximum, the consequences of this timeline would be smaller jewish communities outside the land of israel, but not extending to anything far beyond that.

I hope u'll become a regular contributer in this thread and I want u to know that your comments are very welcomed.
 

Oren_neu_dag

President Sam Houston said:
Also, does the fact that the temple was not destroyed mean that the Ark is still in the possession of the Temple priests? Because having God not only on your side could really make the difference in upcoming wars with the coming empires.
Click to expand...
The fact the ark is still in possession does change Judaism to a more state established religion than it had been in OTL, but other stuff (a hint to the ATL:D) would also affect it.
 

TheSevenLeggedFallyDowner

Sounds fun. I've been meaning to do something with ancient Israel, but I never got anywhere because I didn't know enough about ancient history in general. If you know a lot about it, this TL could be awesome. Good Luck.
 

Kriegdämmerung

Well Oren, I welcome you to the forum. Seems like an interesting idea for a TL. But in the long run, won't an existing Israel/Judah (whatever name you pick) just be rundown and massacred by the Persians or any other successor states (accounting for butterflies, of course)? Or this TL just to focus on a stronger, more spreadout Israelite influence in the Mediterranean?

Either way, can't wait to see this up...
 

GeneralHouston

Hashasheen said:
As an Arab, a Lebanese, A Moslem and someone who's suffered IDF bombings, I welcome you to the board. Check out my 1st TL if you have time, involves 2 Jewish nations, and David Bar Elias has a couple of Uber-Israel TL's done.


Pretty sweet and original TL idea, but one thing you should always know, the earlier the PoD, the bigger the butterflies. A stronger Monarchy would have both the Davidic and Aaronite lines right? And is Jesus going to butterflied? What about the Persians, the Egyptians and the Greeks later on. A potentinal alliance with Carthaginians? a Jewish Cyprus? :D

Best of luck to you!
Click to expand...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most Christians think that God is more powerful than the butterfly effect...:D
 

Deleted member 1487

Wouldn't the Jews just be arabicized when population pressures forced them out to conquer the surrounding nations? I know that Muhammad would probably be butterflied, but the underlying cause of the Arab conquest of the middle east and must of north africa would still exist. Also, what is to say that the kingdom would not fall at a later date to the Romans or Byzantines? Remember too that the Mongols and Turks are coming...
 
Germaniac

Germaniac

Donor
Than why is everyone so quick to butterfly away islam in any Timeline. Not that either matter to me much. They could all go and id be just dandy
 

Hashasheen

Banned
Oren_neu_dag said:
First of all: Ahlan wa-Sahlan ya Jiri min al Shamal! - I am truly sorry that after all those years israelis and lebanese still suffer from prejudice and stupid hate. I (like most israelis that i know) have nothing against lebanon in itself, but only against those that used lebanon as a stage to attack us (whether it be the PLO in the 1980's, or Hezballah in the 2000's).
Click to expand...
would you believe I'm nominally a Hezballoh supporter? :D But yes, AH.com heals all divides.

Second:i don't it would be correct and just of me to just make Jesus, Mohammad or every other important historical figure to "disappear" because of this ATL. it just would be wrong and two easy of me to do and thus it will create a fantasy land that it is not the point of this TL.
Click to expand...
Not like that! I meant will there be ITL versions of Christanity and ISlam, or will Paganism be stronger?

Third: "A Jewish Cyprus"?!!! At maximum, the consequences of this timeline would be smaller jewish communities outside the land of israel, but not extending to anything far beyond that.
Click to expand...
how you define Israel of course, is very selective.....
I hope u'll become a regular contributer in this thread and I want u to know that your comments are very welcomed.
Click to expand...
I'll be watching....
 

wormyguy

Banned
Well, you're going to have Persians, Alexander the Great, Romans, more Persians, Turks, Arabs, Christians, and more Turks, all of whom want those yummy weak primitive kingdoms over there. Might be difficult to keep them around until modern times. I want to see how you get rid of all of them.
 

Lord Grattan

Welcome to the board! It will be good to see more kings of Israel doing what is "right in the eyes of the Lord." I imagine that G-d will still send prophets from time to time to rally or correct the rulers/people, yes?
 
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Lord Grattan

GeneralHouston said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most Christians think that God is more powerful than the butterfly effect...:D
Click to expand...

If an intact Kingdom of Israel remains faithful to the Lord and continues to do what is right in the Lord's eyes, then perhaps Jesus and Christianity would be butterflied away.
 

carlton_bach

wormyguy said:
Well, you're going to have Persians, Alexander the Great, Romans, more Persians, Turks, Arabs, Christians, and more Turks, all of whom want those yummy weak primitive kingdoms over there. Might be difficult to keep them around until modern times. I want to see how you get rid of all of them.
Click to expand...

A good start might be to not try to keep them out. The two kingdoms could well retain a strong sense of identity through conquest and clientship simply because it functions at a different level. With a functioning Temple system (though it would, of course, take a different shape without the post-Exile changes), the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, diadochoi, Romans or whoever else you want to take their place could rule over a relatively unified Israel and Juda. Empire does not preclude kingdom.
 
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