No fall of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, And No Fall of Kingdom of Judah

Interesting. Hope you get lots of participation on your TL. However, could a king of Judah like Hezakiah, unite all the tribes, especially the more northern ones, with Jerusalem being so far for them? Anyway, it would be interesting to see if a more powerful and unified Israel could have resisted the Persians, the Greeks, and then finally the Romans.

But since we associate the destruction of the Northern Kingdom with the ten lost tribes, if that event never occurred, then surely the population of the kingdom as a whole when the Persians came knocking would be much greater, with a military that could at least provide bargaining strength.

Also, does the fact that the temple was not destroyed mean that the Ark is still in the possession of the Temple priests? Because having God not only on your side could really make the difference in upcoming wars with the coming empires.

Resist the Persians, Alexander the Great and the Romans? LOL. Cyrus, Darius and/or Xerxes would make short work of them to begin with.
 
Resist the Persians, Alexander the Great and the Romans? LOL. Cyrus, Darius and/or Xerxes would make short work of them to begin with.

I agree. Divine intervention would be the only 'ace up the sleeve' available for Israel to get through to the present intact e.g. Xerxes or Alexander invades Israel. Does a 'Paul on the way to Damascus' thing i.e. gets zapped by God and coverts to Judaism. Kinda worked that way for Martin Luther too I think! :D
 
Perhaps the Assyrians never get strong or their attentions are directed elsewhere?

Also, I think Ahab led a regional coalition to contain the Assyrians. Perhaps he succeeds at this and the Northern Kingdom never falls or is able to bargain with the Assyrians and becomes a vassal state instead of being exterminated.
 
Resist the Persians, Alexander the Great and the Romans? LOL. Cyrus, Darius and/or Xerxes would make short work of them to begin with.

Well its Oren's TL, and there can be huge butterflies in the ATL that can effect the balance of power throughout the region. Plus, Israel's got Yahweh on their side. So sit back and wait to see what he comes up with before you strike it down.
 
1st Chapter - Religious Unity

In the Year 734 BCE, King Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria had gone on a voyage of conquest to canaan and conquerd the area of the coastal plain 'till Gaza. At the same time King Pekah of Israel makes an alliance with Aram inorder to attack King Ahaz of Judah. Prophet Isaiah, who was the most senior religious authority figure at the time in both kingdoms, gets a divine revelation in which G-d tell him of the plot of Pekah to attack the Kingdom of Judah and sends a warning to Isaiah, that if the Kingdom of Judah will be attacked by the Kingdom of Israel, than G-d will wipe out the kingdom of Israel and all of its inhabitants.
Isaiah, on hearing the message of G-d, decides to go with it to King Ahaz and give him the news. Ahaz on his part, saw the Northern Kingdom as a rebel entity and a duty for him and his descendants to bring the union of the two kingdoms, decides to send emissaries to Assyria for help and spies to Samaria, in order to assasinate (at the right time) King Pekah of Israel. He also devises a plan which will help him bring the two Kingdoms together.
Sometime afterwords Ahaz goes back to talk with Isaiah and asks him if G-d will stand at his side if he'll be victorious in uprooting polytheism from the people of the kingdom of Israel, and bring them back into the rule of the House of David. Isaiah does not know what to answer, and so he goes to the desert to meditate. After two days G-d has revealed himself once more to Isaiah and responded that "I will support any king that does as my bidding, keeps my laws, and upholds the holy Torah, And i will also object to any king that refuses my commands, ignores my laws, and opposes the Holy Torah."
Isaiah returns to Jerusalem with the message, and tells about it to Ahaz. Ahaz asks of Isaiah to go to the Kingdom of Israel and tell them of the Prophecy in order to get as much religious followers as possible. To make the people of Israel to abandon their syncretistic ways, and commit themselves only to the laws of Moses. Ahaz knows that the more the number of believers grow thus the Kingdom of Judah gets more & more people that will someday be ready for a life under the rule of the House of David. At the same time King Ahaz is preparing the ground for a war in the areas of the Northern Tribes (Asher, Naftali, Northern Dan, Zebulun & Issachar) where polytheism is very rampant (because of the proximity to the phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon) and thus is needed to be purged out in order to ensure a religious unity in the people.

In the year 733 BCE Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria does indeed reach the Northern Kingdoms and conquers not only the coastal plain, but also transjordan and the Galilee. and in the Galilee, Tiglath-Pileser also exiles a number of 5,000 people (who were polytheists) into Assyria (which was made under the agreement between King Ahaz and Tiglath-Pileser). but Tiglath-Pileser isn't a man of his words when it comes to rulers of small nations, and he orders his military commanders to round up and prepare for exile another 6,000 people in order to achieve the desired number of slaves that his country needed.
At that point of time happened what later generations will call "The Divine Salvation". In the night after the end of the completion of the first deortation, and before the begining of the planned second deportation. News of a rebellion in Damascus has came to the camp of the army of Tiglath-Pileser, In an urgent call the governor of Damascus plead for his king to come with his army and help crush the rebellion. Unhappy about it, Tiglath-Pileser moved with his troops in the direction of Damascus, leaving behind a small garrison force to keep an eye for the new acquisitions of Assyria and aborting the plan of the second deportation.
Meanwhile, the Egyptian Empire under the rule of Pharoah Piye, has been working in extending its rule into Nubia, recieved an emissary from Judah. The emissary pointed out that for egypt to keep all their troops in Nubia and leaving the Nile Delta and Sinai Desert unguarded is a weak spot of Egypt that the Assyrians, (now in Canaan) will might use inorder to attack and conquer Egypt. Hearing this, Pharaoh Piye ordered a small expeditionary force to go to Canaan and assist the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel against the Assyrian aggression.

Now such an accomplishment on the kingdom of Judah had major implications for the kingdom of Israel. First, the fact that the army of Tiglath-Pileser had to move from the Galilee to Damascus was seen as an act of Divine Intervention in history and thus there should be a repent on the side of the people of the Kingdom of Israel. Second, the fact that 6,000 lives that were already rounded up and prepared for deportation were saved from the cruel fate of Exile, only strengthened the claim that religious devotion is needed to as a solution for every hard political and military situation. And thus it brought a big wave of religious devotion and abandonment of the polytheistic Canaanite gods.
Now, understood King Ahaz, is the time right time to use the spies that he already sent 3 years ago, and that have by now were positioned in very senior positions. One of the spies, Eviathar ben Ratzael, had the position of the head of the royal guard, and was responcible for the protection of the king in his trips, and in the visits to the cities and villages in the kingdom. Eviathar got a message from the kingdom of Judah that it is now time to assasinate King Pekah.
The plan was very simple: King Pekah was very connected to the polytheistic rite in his kingdom and saw it as part of the identity of his kingdom. That's why Eviathar decided to use the phenomenon of the destruction of the ritual sites and the statues to bring to the death of King Pekah when he'll try to stop the destruction by boys who were swept by the wave of religious devotion.
Eviathar planned that the king's route will be along a village where he already knew that they are going to destroy the statues of gods. And so in one of the king's horse-riding trips the king saw a group of young boys, with the encouragement of an old priest, attack a phoenician priest and destry a ritual site that belonged to one of the canaanite gods. The king, as a believer in the gods, immediately went to help the beaten phoenician priest and tried to fight back against the riled up boys, but his protector (on the orders of eviathar) had left the king alone and he died of one of the boy's knife. and folloed by the assasination was an anarchy in the top of the government as no one knew who is in charge.
Exactly at that time King Ahaz decided to use again the services of the prophet Isaiah and also of the High Priest Uriah ben Yotham. They, on their part, have encouraged the religious devotion in the Kingdom of Israel by sending priests into the villages and re-educating them on the laws and commandments of the Mosaic Religion*. One of the priests sent was Yoav Ben Shalmaiah, and he reported to the high priest that he had made an important personal connection with the son of King Pekah, Nadav ben Pekah. Si when Isaiah and Uriah were asked by King Ahaz, who is the best man to succeed the throne of the Kingdom of Israel (as king ahaz himself knew that it was too early for a full union with the northern kingdom), they both answered Nadav ben Pekah.
They both said that according to their source, he is the one most suitable to lead the people of the kingdom of israel back to the Mosaic Religion. because he is the one that lead the delegation of pilgrims from the tribe of Ephraim in last passover and Shavuot to Jerusalem. And he resotered the custom of donations and tithes to the temple in jerusalem. Therefore Ahaz had no doubt that the right man to be the next king of Israel will be Nadav.
Under the encouragement of the Priests and Levites, Nadav ben Pekah has risen to the throne, and brought back lots of the old religious practices and observations of the commandments. Yet king Nadav be Pekah had also a few weak point - he was only 25; his ability to govern was very limited, mostly because most of his father's military commanders and ministers were murdered in the same way his father died. King Ahaz knew about all that and therefor he offered a deal: The Armies of the two kingdoms will be united, and will be used to fight back any potential invader; the external relations will also be united and all the decisions that have to do with it will be taken in concensus between the two kingdomsl; that both kingdoms will share the burden of the cost of maintenance of the Temple in Jerusalem.

And so, in a period of five years from 734 to 729 BCE, Ahaz has been successful in his first part of his plan - to unite the two kingdoms. Now both had one army, and religious unity which is the basis for the national unity that will come later along the road. Ahaz, in the two years to his death, had also managed to creat the Nucleus for what may be the world's first parliament - the Assembly of Presidents, which assembled the president of every tribe, and in it the kings asked to approve all the things related to tax money that each tribe had to pay for the maintenance of the United Army.

The establishment of the Assembly of Presidents, The United Army, And the partnership in the funding of the maintenance of the Temple. All have great implications in the future to come. First, the military service - when ppl from different tribes serve together the United Army becomes not just a tool for defense, but also a melting pot where differences between tribes get less and less distint; Second the differences become blurrer when the dimension of religious unity is added. But hand in hand it also makes permanent the patterns that will affect the people of Israel in the future: The Religious Establishment was the only religious establishment in its days that had Equal Force comparet with the Monarch. And that the political leadership will behave in a manner that not always corresponds to the morals of the religious establishment. So the bottom like that you should expect a future confrontation between the Monarchy and the Established Religion.

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* - Because the name Judaism is too much connected to the tribe of Judah of which the word has evolved from. i'm Thinking of naming the religion in this TL Mosaic Religion, or just Mosaism - named so of course because of Moses
 
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P.S.

P.S.
I'm still trying to figure out how to keep the two kingdoms from falling to either Assyrian, Babylonian or Egyptian hands. So talking to me about Persians, Greeks, Romans and Byzantine is just too much for now
I don't know yet how to go on from the point i now am.
 
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Deleted member 1487

That's the problem, you can't. Unless you want to work in the framework of religion and miracles, the Jewish kingdom cannot survive as a little fish in a large pond.
 
That is, unless you have a prominent Philosopher/Priest/Prophet come to the idea of some form of prostylization. Not necessarily full Conversion but more of a spreading of the Ethics and Morals of the Mosayan Creed.

This could lead to a more consolidated Levantine coastal plain, and that Unity could build up to a partially successful defensive position. Not necessarily successful in keeping the Nations around indefinitely, but enough of a cultural cohesion that it keeps growing back after each destruction. Enough so, that by the time of Alexander or Rome, The Kingdom of Israel will be the basis for the Province of Israel. Thus the Nation State would continue to have a chance of reviving each time the power shifts away from control of the near east from outside.

The question is, do you want the Kingdom of Israel to survive unchallenged in the area into the future, or the Religion of Israel to remain at the core of whatever successor state emerges?
 
Great job, Oren_neu_dag! The TL has an awesome start.

But there's one problem here:
Ahaz was polytheistic. I doubt God would support a king (of the house of David) who burned his son to foreign gods. Ahaz even looted the temple andd gave the gold to Assyria to defend Judah (showing lack of faith in God) and ordered the construction of an altar found in Aram.
 
P.S.
I'm still trying to figure out how to keep the two kingdoms from falling to either Assyrian, Babylonian or Egyptian hands. So talking to me about Persians, Greeks, Romans and Byzantine is just too much for now
I don't know yet how to go on from the point i now am.

There are two ways to prevent the fall of the two kingdoms. Neither are easy:

1) If you have an in-depth knowledge of the Empires of Egypt and Mesopotamia, simply destroy them in civil war or invasion. That's easier said than done mind but would definitely lead to a very different world.

2) If you'd rather limit the butterfly effect and like the maintenance of the two empire regions, make the Levant area a border region that neither side dare take for fear of sparking a war with the other. This would require a lot of diplomatic talent on the part of the Israelites and Judeans, but it could be possible.

The first answer would probably lead to united kingdom with much relative power but in a world which is very week an vunerable. The second would forever make the kingdom a pawn in the world stage. The choice is up to you.

Of course you could come up with an interesting third option.

Things to think about. Taking the Levant coast from the Philistines would be a huge boost to the economy of the United Kingdom. This would allow easier trade with North Africa and Europe. And expansion into Midian, Elat, Edom, Aram, and Moab is certainly possible. If I remember correctly all of them are relatively closely related to the 12 tribes according to Genesis. So all it would require would be a weak empire period and God proclaiming the extenstion of the covernent.

Like I say, it depends on where you want to take the timeline.
 
Great job, Oren_neu_dag! The TL has an awesome start.

But there's one problem here:
Ahaz was polytheistic. I doubt God would support a king (of the house of David) who burned his son to foreign gods. Ahaz even looted the temple andd gave the gold to Assyria to defend Judah (showing lack of faith in God) and ordered the construction of an altar found in Aram.
That's only in OTL. in TTL i make him more of a statesman/pious man.
 
Than why is everyone so quick to butterfly away islam in any Timeline.
Because starting with the collaspe of the Yemen dam thru Mohammad's attemps to reform the Christian church, to his exile, to meeting the desert tribe , to conquest of Arabia.
There are just so many Butterfly points, that can derail OTLs outcome.
Unlike Israel where there were Half dozen Messiahs running around in the century before~after Jesus, They were reacting to the increasing Sophistication caused by the Greco-Romanification of the Society.
If You go with the "''Loyal ''" - :rolleyes: - Province, [of any of the surrounding Empires] you will have to deal with this.
Not that either matter to me much. They could all go and id be just dandy
As I Loyal Asgradian, and follower of the One Eyed Alfather, I don't care about some minor Desert God either, whatever name the followers stick on Him.

Second, the fact that 6,000 lives that were already rounded up and prepared for deportation were saved from the cruel fate of Exile,
Am I correct here :confused: ?Are Whe Butterflying away the Babylonian Captivity?
If so this is going to have major impacts on the development of your Mosic Religion.
During the Captivity is when most of the Concepts about - Shatan - whe have today were developed.
Also during the Captivity is when Yahweh's Female Consort was finally and completely gotten rid of.
 
Am I correct here :confused: ?Are Whe Butterflying away the Babylonian Captivity?
If so this is going to have major impacts on the development of your Mosic Religion.
During the Captivity is when most of the Concepts about - Shatan - whe have today were developed.
Also during the Captivity is when Yahweh's Female Consort was finally and completely gotten rid of.
So far we're only made the people of the two tribes more united under one religion, and one army, it still didn't cancelled the possible exile of the northern tribes (which happened in 722 BCE) nor has it cancelled the babylonian captivity that happened in 586 BCE in OTL.
As for the Babylonian Captivity - i'm still trying to figure out how to deal with it in a way that will leave room for the development of the Mosaic Religion, and on the other hand won't include Political Destruction of these political entities (in what ever form that they might exist - an independent kingdom, provinces, or the middle option of a subordinate kingdom)
 
Wormyguy poses the question does the kingdom remain from the Persians, Alexander the Great, Romans, more Persians, Turks, Arabs, Christians, and more Turks?
 
Ideas everybody for a continuation

As i said before, i started my TL in 734 BCE and talked about the religious unity that was achieved by 729 BCE, plus a Confederation between the two kingdoms was achieved by 727 BCE with one army, one foreign service (if u can call it like that..), and of course joint holding in the funding of the maintenance of the Temple in Jerusalem.
So now, i was thinking how do I stop or alter the exile of the ten tribes, in a way that they will not dissappear after the exile. I thought that since there is a religious unity ITTL that maybe i'll make the assyrian exile into what the babylonian exile was for the tribes of the kingdom of Judah - I.E. the development of the Mishnah and mosaist oral law, plus the concept of the Messiah, that is fundamental for later developments in history.

Any Thoughts? Comments?
 
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As i said before, i started my TL in 734 BCE and talked about the religious unity that was achieved by 729 BCE, plus a Confederation between the two kingdoms was achieved by 727 BCE with one army, one foreign service (if u can call it like that..), and of course joint holding in the funding of the maintenance of the Temple in Jerusalem.
So now, i was thinking how do I stop or alter the exile of the ten tribes, in a way that they will not dissappear after the exile. I thought that since there is a religious unity ITTL that maybe i'll make the assyrian exile into what the babylonian exile was for the tribes of the kingdom of Judah - I.E. the development of the Mishnah and mosaist oral law, plus the concept of the Messiah, that is fundamental for later developments in history.

Any Thoughts? Comments?

The problem is, that would require a major point of departure among the Assyrians. The Assyrians used deportation as a calculated policy to break up national identities so as to remove the nationalistic motivations for local rebellion. Peoples were not resettled en masse in one location. They were broken up into small groups and scattered over large areas of the Empire. This was deliberately done so that the people would be assimilated by their neighbors in the new lands. From an Assyrian point of view, it was a very successful policy. There is no logical reason for them to change it.

The Babylonians, on the other had, kept the Jewish exiles together in one place. Their philosophy seems to have been "keep them together, and keep an eye on them." This situation lent itself to the survival of Judaism and of Judahite identity, whereas the Assyrian policy did not.

You really cannot posit that the northern tribes are going to be able to maintain their identity if they are deported by the Assyrians. You have to find a way to prevent it from happening. Only a major military defeat of the Assyrians will do that. And, I think your selected point of departure for this timeline...less than 20 years before the final collapse of the northern kingdom in OTL...is simply too late.

A better POD might have been to prevent the northern tribes from splitting off in the first place from the United Israelite Kingdom of David and Solomon, coupled with some changes to Israelite religion to allow the conversion and assimilation of conquered peoples. By the time the Assyrians became a threat, the kingdom might have been large and populous enough to resist.

But a POD in the 730s BC is simply too late.
 
The problem is, that would require a major point of departure among the Assyrians. The Assyrians used deportation as a calculated policy to break up national identities so as to remove the nationalistic motivations for local rebellion. Peoples were not resettled en masse in one location. They were broken up into small groups and scattered over large areas of the Empire. This was deliberately done so that the people would be assimilated by their neighbors in the new lands. From an Assyrian point of view, it was a very successful policy. There is no logical reason for them to change it.

The Babylonians, on the other had, kept the Jewish exiles together in one place. Their philosophy seems to have been "keep them together, and keep an eye on them." This situation lent itself to the survival of Judaism and of Judahite identity, whereas the Assyrian policy did not.

You really cannot posit that the northern tribes are going to be able to maintain their identity if they are deported by the Assyrians. You have to find a way to prevent it from happening. Only a major military defeat of the Assyrians will do that. And, I think your selected point of departure for this timeline...less than 20 years before the final collapse of the northern kingdom in OTL...is simply too late.

A better POD might have been to prevent the northern tribes from splitting off in the first place from the United Israelite Kingdom of David and Solomon, coupled with some changes to Israelite religion to allow the conversion and assimilation of conquered peoples. By the time the Assyrians became a threat, the kingdom might have been large and populous enough to resist.

But a POD in the 730s BC is simply too late.

What united kingdom?
 
As i said before, i started my TL in 734 BCE and talked about the religious unity that was achieved by 729 BCE, plus a Confederation between the two kingdoms was achieved by 727 BCE with one army, one foreign service (if u can call it like that..), and of course joint holding in the funding of the maintenance of the Temple in Jerusalem.
So now, i was thinking how do I stop or alter the exile of the ten tribes, in a way that they will not dissappear after the exile. I thought that since there is a religious unity ITTL that maybe i'll make the assyrian exile into what the babylonian exile was for the tribes of the kingdom of Judah - I.E. the development of the Mishnah and mosaist oral law, plus the concept of the Messiah, that is fundamental for later developments in history.

Any Thoughts? Comments?

There was no religious unity until Josiah 'discovered' the book of the Law in about 621 bce. In the century before that you are talking about there is evidence that different gods were worshiped and different cults of the national diety competed with each other or at least existed simultaneously, but no evidence of a centralised, authoritive religious unity in the land.

Indeed, this idea that there was one central authority, kingdom, that had existed and then fractured has no basis in historical reality. You are dealing with mythology when you poist the existence of this kingdom in Palestine.
 
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