Bombers over New York

As the first USAAF bombers drop their cargo over Germany in 1942 the Führer rages: "Revenge!!!" he shouts and bites big chunks of the carpet and then Görings ear. Göring sees that he has to do something really fast, and promises that inside six weeks bombs will fall on New York. Hitler calms downs a bit, spits out the carpet chunk and swallows the ear, while Göring nervously tries to smile. The Füher then looks at his wristwatch and says: "Go ahead!".

Back at the Reichsluftfahrtsamt everybody are put to work and soon the following programme is presented:

Phase 1:

A few existing flying boats are refueled by milkcow U-boats in the Atlantic and bomb Manhattan in daylight, they use the same procedure back again. The flying boats are to have all excessive equipment (incl. defensive armament) and crew members removed to make space for fuel and bombs. The first opportunity with suitable weather inside the next five weeks is to be used, but two weeks is needed to have a milkcow in place.

This is to be repeated as often as is practically possible, but with the bombing runs shifting to nighttime as defenses improve, and over varying East Coast cities.

The primary effect wanted is not actual damage to target, but purely the terror effect and the diversion of enemy efforts to air defense of the American homeland.

Phase 2:

As soon as new long range flying boats can be in service, the campaign is to be intensified, and the option of a secret refueling base on the inland ice of Greenland is to be considered.

Designs of long range flying bomber boats and milkcow is given to the Japanese so they can repeat the effort on the west coast.


Apart from Göring introducing the flying helmet as obligatory headwear to all Luftwaffe uniforms what will the effects be?

Will USA be like in Spielberg’s "Hollywood 1941" (great movie BTW), will the milkcows be needed more elsewhere or will the intensive defenses of US coast cities postpone allied offensives elsewhere?

Regards (and thanks for inspiration to the civilian aircraft carrier thread)

Steffen Redbeard

It wouldn't take many P40s to put an END to that plan

I'd dare say, even Brewster Buffaloes or P39s would do fine! Install some radar, spot them comming 500 milea out, it's doubtful that many "bombers" after the first raid would ever see New York! Now, if you have Goring produce a land bomber with the needed 6000 mile, unrefueled range, and big enough to carry a respectable bombload, like say the German version of the B29, it MIGHT work for a short while before losses became unacceptable. Personally, I think that Hitler would need specially built U-Boats, capable of surface launching V-2 rockets, if he really desired "vengeance" of this sort! Or he could sortie the Tirpitz--- (HAHAHAHAHAHA)!

Id say the first attack would be devastating. The rest would be dismal failures. The US would just focus more air and naval effort on the Atlantic. In a few months, Germany wont have the euipment to launch any more attacks. It may slow down progress in the Pacific (less warships available for awhile) and could delay the war effort in Europe (fewer aircraft available for missions in Europe). Beyond that I doubt it would matter much. Perhaps the effect would be moderate if the Germans and Japanese coordinated some (like having the air offensive kick off shortly before the Midway campaign).

Mike Collins said:

Id say the first attack would be devastating. The rest would be dismal failures. The US would just focus more air and naval effort on the Atlantic. In a few months, Germany wont have the euipment to launch any more attacks. It may slow down progress in the Pacific (less warships available for awhile) and could delay the war effort in Europe (fewer aircraft available for missions in Europe). Beyond that I doubt it would matter much. Perhaps the effect would be moderate if the Germans and Japanese coordinated some (like having the air offensive kick off shortly before the Midway campaign).

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I agree. A first attack might come through as a surprise, especially if it occurred in early 1942. Remember, the US were catastrophically unprepared for the German submarine raids then, in spite of the RN fighting the battle of the Atlantic for more than 2 years...cities and ships were brightly lit, there were not any escorts, no anti-sub tactics, etc.

However, afterwards, the slow flying boats will be sitting ducks even for older warplanes. Germany would need Arado jet bombers to make a difference, and it is nigh impossible to get those into the air in 1942.

How devastating do you anticipate the first few raids to be? Ballpark figure--how many bombers could have been flown on that first mission and what could have been their payload?

Did Doolittle do any real damage?

Doolittle's raid caused considerable changes in Japanese planning, but we hardly scratched anything seriously enough to worry about. Likewise, a few, occasional attacks on New York, whether it is by lumbering, defenseless flying boats or by sub-launched V-Weapons, it wouldn't do much damage. The most certain outcome would be enhanced American resolve to "get Hitler" asap!

The German take Greenland in early 1942 and start building in large numbers the Italian heavy bomber the Plaggio P.108 and start major bombing raids on the US and Great Britain it is almost as heavly armed as the B-17 amd carried up to 3500kg of bombs . just think of a 200 plane bombing raid on New York with this aircraft

Wouldn't everyone notice 200 bombers being stationed in Greenland?

Taking Greenland is probably not that tough. Holding Greenland is. That is a great distance away for a supply line to stretch and being beseiged on 3 different sides. They might be able to start setting up a base, but they certainly won't keep it from being overrun by Canadian, US or British troops.

Torqumada

The plan is to shift to night attacks as soon as defensive action is met and also attacking different coastal cities (big enough to hit at night) each time. A P40 can't do much at night by 1942, but a lot will have been deployed in home defence and not sent to Europe or the Pacific. I guess some P38's or B25 over time could be rigged and trained as night fighters, but the question is what political consequences, different priorities etc. have happened before that?

I guess the first consequence could be the bomber offensive over Europe gaining momentum later, as larger priority is given to defensive fighters in the aircraft industry and pilot training programme. IMO that really won't be negative to the allied wareffort. But if significantly less materiel is sent to Russia that can have serious consequences.

Life on the East Coast of USA will be different, and more like in Europe. I guess that will have to have some cultural consequences later on - but which?

regards

Steffen Redbeard

Coast Guard?

What kind of effect what have in building up the coast guard both during and after the war?

With incursions made by bombers.
(Sea Planes or Land based bombers)
A terror attack made by Germany may bulk up shore patrols along the beaches. Maybe a spotter system such as in Australia until radar can be bulked up. So small incursions made in the gulf maybe curtailed early.

Any thoughts?

According to this, would the Piaggio have had the range to fly to New York and back from Greenland?

http://www.comandosupremo.com/P108.html

Hey guys I was just considering such a POD which has the US being, like all the other major combatants of WWII, directly targeted on home soil by extensive enemy bombing (apart of course from the OTL Jap balloon bombs sent against the west coast during 1945 and the 1 lone firebombing mission on an Oregon forest by a sub-launched seaplane in 1943 IIRC). Could this have realistically happened at all ? Assuming that the US could somehow suffer extensive destruction to its home soil to the same extent at least as Britain during WWII, how would America's OTL postwar economic growth have been affected for the worse ?

I recall the Hist Channel documentary on LAST SECRETS OF THE AXIS, about the projected Jap 8-engine Mount Fuji bomber which was intended to launch intercontinental bombing attacks on CONUS, including possibly with dropping a biobomb, manufactured at Unit 731's hideous death factory in Pingfan, Manchuria, on San Francisco.

The Mt Fuji bomber was 6 engined, not 8.

http://users.belgacom.net/aircraft2/avion2/5270.html#60

Outside of making the entire country back a Germany First policy instead of having the country full of people who wanted to tackle Japan first you would see the US further accelerate fighter production . Germany will fall much faster then Japan in this TL.

As in OTL, the night fighters would probably be A-20 (P-70) Havocs.

And then the P-61 Black Widow would arrive...

As for the Huns, there's the old story about the Ju 390 that, based in France, actually had New York's lights in sight before having to turn back.

swamphen said:

As in OTL, the night fighters would probably be A-20 (P-70) Havocs.

And then the P-61 Black Widow would arrive...

As for the Huns, there's the old story about the Ju 390 that, based in France, actually had New York's lights in sight before having to turn back.

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It didn't have to turn back. It was merely on a long range test flight and that was its plan. It could easily have tried to do an Al-Qaida on the Empire State Building if it wanted to, but Germans, even Nazis, are not like that.

By the way, regarding the original question, I agree with the Banned One. The first strike by these improvised flying boat bombers would probably have had some success, but later attempts would have been disasters. It probably would have had all sort of "1942"-sh effects on the reaction of Americans, but no real effect on the war. IT woud also be easily spun by US propaganda to show the Germans were even more desperate than ever.

I suppose the nearest equilivant opperation in OTL would be the Doolittle raid by US medium bombers launched off carriers against Japan. I.E. I expect that the raid will be off NO military value but will have some signifiacnt effect on American morale.
The second raid will likely be completely destroyed by US fighters

As soon as new long range flying boats can be in service, the campaign is to be intensified, and the option of a secret refueling base on the inland ice of Greenland is to be considered.

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Uhm Greenland was in allied hands so I don't think you would have a hope in hell of establishing such a base let alone keeping it supplied.

Cockroach said:

I suppose the nearest equilivant opperation in OTL would be the Doolittle raid by US medium bombers launched off carriers against Japan. I.E. I expect that the raid will be off NO military value but will have some signifiacnt effect on American morale.
The second raid will likely be completely destroyed by US fighters



Uhm Greenland was in allied hands so I don't think you would have a hope in hell of establishing such a base let alone keeping it supplied.

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A agree that the direct military value of such attacks will be nil, even the large scale bombings had marginal direct military effect, but I think a lot here underestimate the troubles involved in stopping such raids.

The idea is that attacks shift to nighttime and against different coastal cities each night, if necessary at low level too. By 1942 there wouldn't be much that could be done against such attacks, and even in late WWII it would be difficult to achieve high success rate gainst single low flying raiders. But politically I guess it will be impossible not to deploy fighter squadrons, AAA batteries along the whole Atlantic coast.

That would IMO be possible without necessarily weakening the war effort elsewhere, but I'm interested in the psycological effects. The attacks will no doubt create a cohesion like was seen elsewhere. But what will happen when it becomes clear that no matter all the efforts there practically every night still falls bombs somewhere on the East Coast? Will there be any lasting effects on post-war USA - cultural, morally, politically?

Regarding Greenland "allied control" was in a very loose sense of the term. The Germans actually had weatherships and stations up there through most of the war, and theoretically you could have a refuelling base on the inland ice without anybody finding out for years. In practice however, I believe the inland ice is way to uneven to land aircraft on. My inspiration was the RAF/FAA using secret bases in the dessert behind Axis lines for refueling FAA strikes on Axis shipping. All fuel and equipment was flown into the bases, and AFAIK each base was only used one time. Anyway in Greenland the problem would also be how to get all that fuel up there, you could easily spend 100 l. for getting 1 l. up there (by flying boat/milk cow?).

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Redbeard said:

A agree that the direct military value of such attacks will be nil, even the large scale bombings had marginal direct military effect, but I think a lot here underestimate the troubles involved in stopping such raids.

The idea is that attacks shift to nighttime and against different coastal cities each night, if necessary at low level too. By 1942 there wouldn't be much that could be done against such attacks, and even in late WWII it would be difficult to achieve high success rate gainst single low flying raiders. But politically I guess it will be impossible not to deploy fighter squadrons, AAA batteries along the whole Atlantic coast.

That would IMO be possible without necessarily weakening the war effort elsewhere, but I'm interested in the psycological effects. The attacks will no doubt create a cohesion like was seen elsewhere. But what will happen when it becomes clear that no matter all the efforts there practically every night still falls bombs somewhere on the East Coast? Will there be any lasting effects on post-war USA - cultural, morally, politically?

Regarding Greenland "allied control" was in a very loose sense of the term. The Germans actually had weatherships and stations up there through most of the war, and theoretically you could have a refuelling base on the inland ice without anybody finding out for years. In practice however, I believe the inland ice is way to uneven to land aircraft on. My inspiration was the RAF/FAA using secret bases in the dessert behind Axis lines for refueling FAA strikes on Axis shipping. All fuel and equipment was flown into the bases, and AFAIK each base was only used one time. Anyway in Greenland the problem would also be how to get all that fuel up there, you could easily spend 100 l. for getting 1 l. up there (by flying boat/milk cow?).

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

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One thing for sure, the Germans will be in even worse shape after the war.