WI of Duke Richard of York and King Edward V were not imprisoned in the Tower of London by Richard III?
No Princes in the Tower
- Thread starter Archangel Michael
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Grey Wolf
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Mikey said:
Its a good question, but what does it mean
The Tower of London was not just a prison, not just a military base, it was also a royal residence. I believe I am right in saying that the two boys were not actually locked in cells there or anything of that type, they were lodged in royal residences. They just disappeared from view over time (in which maybe they made a stop in the cells before being murdered) but originally they were there because it was a royal residence
Now, if not the Tower then where ? I believe Barnards Castle was still around, and IIRC it had a Yorkist connection (IIRC again its roundabout where the Savoy is now) - maybe there ? Or the Palace of Whitehall ? Or a castle in the North ?
Or, is the question with regard to whether Richard did not declare himself Protector for Edward V ? In order to do so he needed the boys in his keeping, and once he had done so he needed them to remain there
Grey Wolf
By what I mean is that Edward isn't killed, and lives till his majority. Now what?
Grey Wolf
Donor
Mikey said:
Even so, its not that simple - nothng ever is, really
The first question is what about Richard, Duke of Gloucester ? If he doesn't secure the Protectorship for himself, then the likelihood is that Edward V falls completely under the influence of the Woodville faction.
An agreed co-existence between Richard and the Woodvilles just doesn't look likely. They will view him as a threat to their position. He views them in the same light. OTL by taking the Protectorship, Richard put himself in a position to take out his enemies and eradicate the majority of the faction that had hoped to rule (IIRC some of them fled to Brittany where Henry Tudor was)
So, the question could come down to how is the Richard - Woodville conflict resolved ? Is Richard killed ? Is he driven into exile (Burgundy ?) ? A 'solution' to the conflict along these lines may in fact be no solution in itself. He has his allies, probably more than he ended up with in OTL as he would be seen as the undeserving victim here. He also has a son, and its never a foregone conclusion that he will die young. Other circumstances, especially for example an exile, may allow Prince Edward to grow to maturity
Even so, it may be possible to postulate a reign for Edward V somewhat similar to his father's first reign (1460s). A shaky monarchy with a small body of committed supporters, the majority of the aristocracy on side because the king is the king when he's the king. And with a strong exile movement against them.
Grey Wolf
The Tower was a prison, and understandably feared by the guilty, but you had to be of extremely noble(if not royal) birth to go there. There was also an assumption(strong or otherwise) that anyone sent here MIGHT be rehabilitated and decent conditions could mitigate an otherwise serious grudge against the imprisoner.
The Duke of Gloucester had one strong case for being Lord Protector. It was his rightful position as determined by his late brother, King Edward IV! When the Woodvilles attempted to usurp his position, and throw out his brother's wishes, they proved themselves a threat to him. There is little evidence that he was plotting against them on his brother's unexpected death, and he may well have been driven into seizing full power on the expectation that his nephew was less than 2 years from his majority and completely in the pocket of the Woodvilles(his mother, favorite uncles, etc so no surpise).
All we need to change history is for the Woodvilles to use their brains. Given Richard's well-known devotion to his brother, Edward IV, they take a chance and effectively make him protector of the north of England(effectively his position already). Meanwhile they handle things in the South. By behaving sensibly they convince him that an arrangement will be honored, if only because the Woodvilles had enemies like some people have dandruff. Although it is inevitable that they will get into trouble, there is a limit to how far opposition can go, knowing that even if they can take out the Woodvilles and the king himself, there is a proven war leader up north with a third of the realm who might be a wee bit put out if his nephew is harmed.
Where we go after a few years depends on who you think killed the princes and how plans are changed. For instance, if Richard's wife and son die on schedule(practically certain in his wife's case) he is now a grieving widower with no heir and might well throw himself into making his nephew's kingdom a better place. Certainly he would be perceived as less of a threat.
The Duke of Gloucester had one strong case for being Lord Protector. It was his rightful position as determined by his late brother, King Edward IV! When the Woodvilles attempted to usurp his position, and throw out his brother's wishes, they proved themselves a threat to him. There is little evidence that he was plotting against them on his brother's unexpected death, and he may well have been driven into seizing full power on the expectation that his nephew was less than 2 years from his majority and completely in the pocket of the Woodvilles(his mother, favorite uncles, etc so no surpise).
All we need to change history is for the Woodvilles to use their brains. Given Richard's well-known devotion to his brother, Edward IV, they take a chance and effectively make him protector of the north of England(effectively his position already). Meanwhile they handle things in the South. By behaving sensibly they convince him that an arrangement will be honored, if only because the Woodvilles had enemies like some people have dandruff. Although it is inevitable that they will get into trouble, there is a limit to how far opposition can go, knowing that even if they can take out the Woodvilles and the king himself, there is a proven war leader up north with a third of the realm who might be a wee bit put out if his nephew is harmed.
Where we go after a few years depends on who you think killed the princes and how plans are changed. For instance, if Richard's wife and son die on schedule(practically certain in his wife's case) he is now a grieving widower with no heir and might well throw himself into making his nephew's kingdom a better place. Certainly he would be perceived as less of a threat.
Grey Wolf
Donor
There's a kind of irony - if the Woodvilles had been less afraid of Richard, then he may have acted less against them...
If your scenario goes through, and Edward V reaches his majority, with Richard effectively Protector of the North... then what ?
In this scenario, its possible that James, Duke of Rothesay (son of James III and the future James IV) remains betrothed to Princess Cecilia, who will still be the sister of the king, and not an increasingly minor royal as she was in OTL.
I am tempted to see Edward V as being in a difficult position, maybe more like Richard II than Edward IV. He is young, he is surrounded by unpopular favourites, he has a powerful uncle looming in the background, as well as a cousin who in this ATL is probably going to play more of a role. I could imagine Richard being the sponsor for Warwick, especially if his own son dies.
Henry Tudor could actually achieve the reconciliation he was on/off after. His exiled party in Brittany has not been boosted as per OTL with Woodvilles etc, and he must be getting increasingly desperate. If he abandons De Vere, then Edward V will probably grant him the earldom of Richmond, and maybe allow Jasper to come home, but without title.
However, I don't see this rosy picture being the main one. There are a huge number of aristocratic rivalries, and competing claims around, as well as big egos (think Buckingham) and local powerbases. IIRC Richard, Duke of York, by his late child bride has inherited vast estates that IIRC again Robert Howard had a claim to. Just as one example
The royal dynasty would consist soon of four branches - Edward V himself, the Duke of York who would be making a new marriage and a new line, the Duke of Gloucester and his son (if he lives) and Warwick who will be pushing/pushed for the Clarence title. It would make more sense for Richard (Gloucester) to adopt Warwick's interests than to let him be used by his enemies - a good deal of Richard's own power base comes from his late brother's estates (George, Duke of Clarence's) so if he can get Warwick on side he can aim to divert his attention away from reclaiming these, or at least the most lucrative and important of them
Grey Wolf
If your scenario goes through, and Edward V reaches his majority, with Richard effectively Protector of the North... then what ?
In this scenario, its possible that James, Duke of Rothesay (son of James III and the future James IV) remains betrothed to Princess Cecilia, who will still be the sister of the king, and not an increasingly minor royal as she was in OTL.
I am tempted to see Edward V as being in a difficult position, maybe more like Richard II than Edward IV. He is young, he is surrounded by unpopular favourites, he has a powerful uncle looming in the background, as well as a cousin who in this ATL is probably going to play more of a role. I could imagine Richard being the sponsor for Warwick, especially if his own son dies.
Henry Tudor could actually achieve the reconciliation he was on/off after. His exiled party in Brittany has not been boosted as per OTL with Woodvilles etc, and he must be getting increasingly desperate. If he abandons De Vere, then Edward V will probably grant him the earldom of Richmond, and maybe allow Jasper to come home, but without title.
However, I don't see this rosy picture being the main one. There are a huge number of aristocratic rivalries, and competing claims around, as well as big egos (think Buckingham) and local powerbases. IIRC Richard, Duke of York, by his late child bride has inherited vast estates that IIRC again Robert Howard had a claim to. Just as one example
The royal dynasty would consist soon of four branches - Edward V himself, the Duke of York who would be making a new marriage and a new line, the Duke of Gloucester and his son (if he lives) and Warwick who will be pushing/pushed for the Clarence title. It would make more sense for Richard (Gloucester) to adopt Warwick's interests than to let him be used by his enemies - a good deal of Richard's own power base comes from his late brother's estates (George, Duke of Clarence's) so if he can get Warwick on side he can aim to divert his attention away from reclaiming these, or at least the most lucrative and important of them
Grey Wolf
Grey, I don't see how Richard's son would have lived. Given that Richard himself was relatively poor in health as a boy, he may well have tried to reassure himself that his son might also develop a bit late, but in hindsight it appears unlikely.
Also, I don't see Richard marrying again. Evidence suggests he loved Anne of Warwick dearly and would not have sought another wife. Remember, in OTL, when an heir would have been much more important, he refused to marry again and appointed his nephew as his heir. If he had ANY plans of another marriage and/or son, appointing an heir was just asking for trouble.
Given the Woodvilles' general sense of thrift and human compassion, I don't see them giving anything to Henry Tudor or anyone else that they didn't have to, in the sense of a knife at the throat.
And what part of Richard's power base came from his brother's lands? He didn't inherit anything from his brother. In fact, a strong case can be made that he genuinely loved Anne because he gave up so much to the Duke of Clarence in return for permission(nearest male relative by marriage) to marry Anne. And when George died, his son got everything.
Also, I don't see Richard marrying again. Evidence suggests he loved Anne of Warwick dearly and would not have sought another wife. Remember, in OTL, when an heir would have been much more important, he refused to marry again and appointed his nephew as his heir. If he had ANY plans of another marriage and/or son, appointing an heir was just asking for trouble.
Given the Woodvilles' general sense of thrift and human compassion, I don't see them giving anything to Henry Tudor or anyone else that they didn't have to, in the sense of a knife at the throat.
And what part of Richard's power base came from his brother's lands? He didn't inherit anything from his brother. In fact, a strong case can be made that he genuinely loved Anne because he gave up so much to the Duke of Clarence in return for permission(nearest male relative by marriage) to marry Anne. And when George died, his son got everything.