worse defeat for ottomans at Ankara in 1402

Who conquers the balkans?

  • Third Bulgarian Empire

  • Serbian Empire

  • Reborn Byzantine Empire

  • Ottoman Empire with new Dynasty

  • No one is able to take leadership/dominance

  • Venetian Sith empire( WITH RED LIGHTSABERS!!)

  • Hungarian dominance


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pls don't ban me

Monthly Donor
So, in OTL the ottomans were basically annihilated, and the sultan was captured while his sons were able to escape.
What would change if Timur captures as well all the osmanoglu and thus killing the ottoman royal family?
I assume that while the Anatolian region will face a long civil war for the brand new sultan, in the Balkans we might se the return of Bulgaria( the Tsardom of Vidin will reclaim the Bulgarian lands with Constantine II being remembered as the reunificator rather then being forgotten by history) while Byzantium might try to seize again control over the Greek Aegean coast.
But then what?
 
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I can see Venice expanding in the Aegean but they had zero interest in anything that was inland. I think the Byzantines were a spent force after their civil war in the 14th Century.

Inland...maybe the Hungarians like @Ultima Ratio said?
 
I can't see any one power coming out on top. The Byzantines might be able to get off life support, but it seems to be delaying the inevitable.
 

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Monthly Donor
well, hungary might be able to take a dominating position, but i don't think they can conquer Serbia, Bulgaria nor Walacchia.
We're talking about 3 Orthodox countries under a Catholic one.
I think it's more Believable an Alliance between Bulgaria and Hungary with Serbia partitioned between them.
Bulgarians will welcome the Serbians escaping from the occupied Hungarian territories allowing stability for Hungary and more dense population for the Bulgarians.
Also, if Bulgaria somehow gets more stable without changing Dynasty every 3/4 rulers, i think that Serbians can be absorbed culturally( there isn't that big difference at the time).
What will happen to Byzantium is a big question. In 1453 the Ottomans with an army of 100k man almost Barely took the city against 7k man. In this TL Byzantium will have recovered a few Key territories( Thrace/Thessaly) ans can keep the city until it's allied with Genoa. ASA the artillery become a standard and there is a semi-strong presence in the Balkans, the Empire is doomed.
In my case Bulgaria most likely will occupy the city, rename it Tsarigrad and declare a new byzantine empire ruled by Bulgarians( marry a Greek and he's fine) or simply become the third Bulgarian-slav empire after expelling the greeks from the city.
 
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I think the ERE is spent and done as a force for a while.

How about Stefan Lazarević? He seemed pretty sucessful and a good ruler. He fought at Ankara and would probably see the deaths of House Osman as an opportunity. I think later in the year he became a hungarian vassal.

Btw, wans't Greece full of little crusader states during this time?

Looks like a choice between Serbians or Bulgarians taking over the title of Eastern Roman Emperor.

What about the other side of the strait? Would we see other turkish groups try to become the big cheese? Like the Karamanids?
 
The only way this can happene is if the venetians don't ferry the sultan's sons which let's say they are to late or for some x reasons they for one it's unlikely that timur destroys the crusader fortress of syrma since he wanted to punish the chirstians for helping the ottoman princes , its also unlikely that timur would waste his time in siege of constantinople he would just resotre the bayliks and as his enemies would have took bagdad he would get out of the area, the ottoman empire collapses

Konstantin and Fruzhin migth try to rebell since at this point bulgaria had been conquered for about some 10 years , of course serbia under stephan could do well depends if he wants to become seguismunds vassla or expand by invading the ottoman province of bulgaria.

the byzantines will not go to mighty reconquest but on the plus side they dont have to pay tribute and can take some coastal areas

albania would do ok and if skandarbeg genius was natural talent rathern than the ottoman court training then they would do very well ,segismund already tried to attack the ottomans some years prior in the otl he was busy in the years after timur , so in short the balkans would become a battle ground of hungary trying to expand south , buglaria gaining freedom and trying to survive attacks from wallachia and the serbs , the alabenians would just be ok and the byzantines would surivive and takes some costal things.

in anatolia well timur would have restored the bayliks over anatolia , the Kara Koyunlu would be busy in the east against the timurids and after the deah of their leader they would decline if no baylik rises to prominince i can see the Aq Qoyunlu exapand to anatolia.
 
wasn't Hungary at the time under personal union with Poland?
Nope, the king was Sigismund, who was also the Holy Roman Emperor. He had his troubles with the Hussites, but ultimately Hungary is in a very strong position at this time. They would of course not outright conquer the Balkans, but vassalize the smaller states.
 
It sure as shit isn’t going to be the ERE. They were done for by this point. This takes the pressure off but at some point they will fall. It becomes a question of who is more capable of taking Greece, Serbia or Bulgaria? Although it could technically survive if it fell but the conquers took the title for themselves.
 
It sure as shit isn’t going to be the ERE. They were done for by this point. This takes the pressure off but at some point they will fall. It becomes a question of who is more capable of taking Greece, Serbia or Bulgaria? Although it could technically survive if it fell but the conquers took the title for themselves.
Venice would most likely get Morea, Attica and Negroponte. It might go on to take Constantinople itself. I mean, Venice was going through an expansionist spree IOTL, but was torpedoed by the rise of the Ottoman Empire.

I can see Venice grabbing southern Greece, Crete, Rhodes, maybe Constantinople as well, and then the Dalmatian coast when Hungary is still struggling with internal problems, and then North Italy.
 
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well, hungary might be able to take a dominating position, but i don't think they can conquer Serbia, Bulgaria nor Walacchia.
We're talking about 3 Orthodox countries under a Catholic one.
I think it's more Believable an Alliance between Bulgaria and Hungary with Serbia partitioned between them.
Bulgarians will welcome the Serbians escaping from the occupied Hungarian territories allowing stability for Hungary and more dense population for the Bulgarians.
Also, if Bulgaria somehow gets more stable without changing Dynasty every 3/4 rulers, i think that Serbians can be absorbed culturally( there isn't that big difference at the time).
What will happen to Byzantium is a big question. In 1453 the Ottomans with an army of 100k man almost Barely took the city against 7k man. In this TL Byzantium will have recovered a few Key territories( Thrace/Thessaly) ans can keep the city until it's allied with Genoa. ASA the artillery become a standard and there is a semi-strong presence in the Balkans, the Empire is doomed.
In my case Bulgaria most likely will occupy the city, rename it Tsarigrad and declare a new byzantine empire ruled by Bulgarians( marry a Greek and he's fine) or simply become the third Bulgarian-slav empire after expelling the greeks from the city.
I cant be sure of course but in the case of bulgaria conquering the city my guess is:
The tsar moves its Capital to the city - which wont be renamed to anything. And if they can hold on to it in a few genereations the tsar will be as greek and as byzantine in most things as any previous Emperor. Like the Ottomans were hailed at times as the sucessors of Rome so will be here the Bulgarians. The leading nobility will be mostly bulgarian but admnistration and everything else will be greek. If or when it becomes practice that the nobility moves in to the court than the nobility will become greek as well.
 
Hungary still had structural problems of overpowered magnates, which IOTL eventually doomed it.
Those problems could be fixed in 100 years Mathias was doing quite fine until well he died and it all went down. hill Jonh hunyadi is still alive since his birth is only 4 years apart from the pod hunyadi with our being discrated by the ottomans and him being a great states men could do a lot of things for the kingdom
 

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Monthly Donor
I cant be sure of course but in the case of bulgaria conquering the city my guess is:
The tsar moves its Capital to the city - which wont be renamed to anything. And if they can hold on to it in a few genereations the tsar will be as greek and as byzantine in most things as any previous Emperor. Like the Ottomans were hailed at times as the sucessors of Rome so will be here the Bulgarians. The leading nobility will be mostly bulgarian but admnistration and everything else will be greek. If or when it becomes practice that the nobility moves in to the court than the nobility will become greek as well.
so basically modern Bulgarians would be more Greek.
 
so basically modern Bulgarians would be more Greek.
The leadership/elit would mostly assimilate ower time I think. I also suspect that the administration of the country would sooner or later mostly become the domain of the greeks - so the official language of the country will become in practice greek.
 

pls don't ban me

Monthly Donor
The leadership/elit would mostly assimilate ower time I think. I also suspect that the administration of the country would sooner or later mostly become the domain of the greeks - so the official language of the country will become in practice greek.
well, this may cause a problem.
If such a state survives until 1800, with rise of nationalism, it will claim all of greece.
 
well, this may cause a problem.
If such a state survives until 1800, with rise of nationalism, it will claim all of greece.
No guarantee nationalism exists in this hypothetical world. Took a fairly specific set of circumstances to originate OTL and those can easily be butterflied away with a POD in the 1400s.
 

pls don't ban me

Monthly Donor
No guarantee nationalism exists in this hypothetical world. Took a fairly specific set of circumstances to originate OTL and those can easily be butterflied away with a POD in the 1400s.
well, yes and no.
The concept of culture existed before 1800 and so the concept of nation of the people( france, England, Spain are an example).
in OTL the events of the XIV century showed how powerful can be the people of same culture if they stood united.
Nationalism will be definitely different or will rise later.
I was thinking what really changes in this scenario is the discovery on colonization of the Americas.
In OTL it happened because the ottomans increased the trade taxes and thus portuguese and spanish government went for different routes to pay less the spices. If Genoa keeps Galata and costantinople stays in christian hands this will delay the discovery of the americas. No Columbus expedition and portugal eventually reaches Cape, focusing even more on the east.
 
The leadership/elit would mostly assimilate ower time I think. I also suspect that the administration of the country would sooner or later mostly become the domain of the greeks - so the official language of the country will become in practice greek.
Bear in mind the Byzantine administration of this time couldn't even handle running Morea.
 
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