In our timeline, King Philippe II Augustus f France was able to take Henry II's Angevin Empire on the Continent with helps from Henry's own sons Richard and John. However, in an alternate timeline, what would happen if Richard I also predeceased Henry II and Philippe II predeceased his father Louis VII. Say Louis dies when he did OTL while all of Henry's children outside of Geoffrey who still has Arthur I of Brittany. Henry II can die on schedule in this scenario. Who succeeds Louis VII here, would Henry II have John marry someone else? What would happen with the King of France and his relationship with John?
WI : Philip II predececeases Louis VII and John succeeds Henry II
- Thread starter TheDoofusUser
- Start date
I suppose Louis VII's son-in-law Henri I of Champagne would succeed him. He probably wouldn't go on pilgrimage in 1179 if Philippe's already dead. Or if Philippe dies while Henri's away, he'd come back at once. Also, Philippe predeceasing his father means the betrothal between Marie's son and Isabella of Hainaut won't be broken.
Assuming Henry II still makes his crusading vow here (and I don't see why he wouldn't, given that it was in vogue to do so), then it's John who inherits that vow in this timeline, not Richard. Since Henry had been raising tons of money for this effort, John has no real basis for refusing to go. With Philip out of the way, John probably has an easier time traveling and making decisions. But he's also not his brother, so John is not likely to meet with much success once the actual fighting begins.
John in the Holy Land is ripe to become a right old mess.
John in the Holy Land is ripe to become a right old mess.
Jonathan1997
Banned
The crown would go to Count Henry of champagne who would be Henri II of France
As for Jon you have two possibilities one Henry ii of England gives Jon England, part of Wales and parts of Ireland with Richard getting the rest.
The other out come is Jon inherit the lot in 1189
As for Jon you have two possibilities one Henry ii of England gives Jon England, part of Wales and parts of Ireland with Richard getting the rest.
The other out come is Jon inherit the lot in 1189
Possibly. But Louis VII had younger brothers as well: Robert of Dreux (who outlived Louis by a number of years) and Peter of Courtenay (who also outlived Louis, but not by as long). These younger brothers did not have appendages as the later Capetian scions did, true, and therefore no formalized place in the succession, but bids for the throne on their end may prove successful if played the right way.
If Louis VII has no sons, then a decision has to be made: does the crown go to his eldest daughter (Marie), his son-in-law (Henry I of Champagne), his grandson (Henry II of Champagne), or his younger brother (Robert of Dreux)? I do think the Champagnes probably have the best odds, but depending on how things shake out, things could turn out differently (if there's opposition to Henry I, for example, or opposition to Marie as the daughter of Louis's spurned wife) depending on the circumstances.
Jonathan1997
Banned
The French didn't have salic law
Philip V userpe his brother's daughter
Than Charles iV and Philip Vi did it which created a legal precedent.
No, they didn't have Salic law. But if an uncle can usurp a niece a century later, then there's at least a chance an uncle could usurp a niece a century earlier, correct? Especially if somebody decides to lean on the elective nature of the French crown (in which case being Louis VII's heir by blood proximity as his direct descendant wouldn't matter as much). That elective nature hadn't entirely been bucked by Philip II's time, in which case arguments can be made for whichever candidate fits the political needs of the moment.
Jonathan1997
Banned
It was Philip ii that changes that but in True the crown has successfully passed to Hugh I, Robert ii, Henry I, Philip I, Louis Vi, Louis Vii all kings of the Capations Dynasty.
And the king where made co kings I don't believe the election was really a thing.
Also Henri of champagne would fight for the crown same as any other claimants.
Any civil war would mean King Jon would be able to strengthen his position if he had no outside rivals for the next 1 or 2 decades
True but Joan of France was a child when it happened while Marie's an adult, married and with sons of her own. And Robert had conspired against his brother years before so Louis may decide to have Henri I of Champagne crowned as co-King of the Franks.
Henry I can have John assassinated in this scenario so he can inherit Aquitaine.
Actually, there were plenty of similar precedents in the Merovingian and Carolingian times.
It is true that, in the XIVth century, all of that was very far and the idea of Jeanne becoming queen regnant of France was seriously considered.
I guess he would need to kill Geoffrey's children too.
Jonathan1997
Banned
Henry ii could just give Jon England and the rest goes to king Richard or Arthur for brittany
I guess I should've clarified, but Henry II is succeeded by John as Richard predeceases him along with Geoffrey, though Geoffrey's children Eleanor and Arthur survive their father and grandfather. I guess I should've clarified that a bit more in the OP.