Tzachas Bey https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzachas a Turkic Muslim hellenophile warlord having for ambition to become Roman emperor and take Constantinople for this purpose he built a fleet wich woul achieve some success and allied the Pecheneg a at least partially Muslim Turkish tribe wich migrated to the Balkan and pillaged the ERE for a joint attack on Constantinople OTL Alexios managed to defeat the Pecheneg and nearly completely wipe the tribe in the battle of Levounion with the help of the Cuman another nomadic Turkic tribe before they could joint force . What if the Pecheneg won instead https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Levounion PoD could be the pecheneg army being not taken by surprise or even taking them by surprise and somewhat winning the battle ( thinked about the Cuman not allying the Roman but that could mean no battle in itself) most of the coalised army end up dead or routed . Emperor Alexios killed by a lucky arrow or by one of his opposent at home after his defeat . With most of the Byzantine army being wiped out in the Battle i could see Tzanchas and the Pecheneg take Gallipoli and go siege Constantinople the Thedososian wall will still be a big obstacle but if the Roman leadership following Alexios death is incompetent enough and fail to organize a defence (with some traitor and lucky event to the Turk ) I could see the city fall like in the 4 crusade . With Tzachas being hellenophile and specifically wanting to be a Roman emperor I could see him creating a hellenized Islamic Roman Empire and attire thousand of Islamic Turkic adventurer at his command . But that just one of the possibility the siege could also fail . Now what I could see happening in either case after the victory at Levounion his the Petcheneg settling in the western Balkan thrace western Bulgaria southern Romania etc ... Bulgars rebellion the Norman profiting of the Byzantine weakness to take part of the Balkan some Roman rump state being created and Tzachas in the rest of his life if he doesn’t remain assassined like OTL wich he would probably do continu to renforce his principality and navy to retry a siege of Constantinople . Also the Pope upon learning of the siege of Constantinople would probably want to send a crusade analogue but it will take years to be prepared and arrive . What are the plausibility of that ? And your through ?
 
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It cannot be understated that the Byzantines would oppose any notion of a Muslim Turk becoming Emperor. You would have the remaining Byzantines either declare independence or go to the neighboring states and offer the throne to anyone willing to put Tzachas' head on a pike.
 
It cannot be understated that the Byzantines would oppose any notion of a Muslim Turk becoming Emperor. You would have the remaining Byzantines either declare independence or go to the neighboring states and offer the throne to anyone willing to put Tzachas' head on a pike.
I didn’t except less in my mind all remaining of Byzantine Europe will fracture in various Byzantine rump state with the bulgar trying to regain their independence and the Norman looking at the Balkan opportunistically . Tzachas empire after the capture empire of Constantinople would be pretty much just aegan coast of turkey with the various island in front of it Marmara coast and Thrace with the Pecheneg in norther Bulgaria southern Romania as Allie/military source which could be integrated with time . And they’re will probably a crusade directed by the Pope to take back Constantinople to Christianity and mend the Schism not sure it would less popular than OTL crusade because of not being directed to Jerusalem . Also another think to consider is the reaction of the rest of the Seljuk empire and if Malik Shah still die around OTL time . But him taking Constantinople pretty much make him a Islamic hero and legend and the man who opened the Queen of cities to Islam like prophesied . Thousands of Turkic and Islamic adventurer would flow to his side honestly he should be able to hold into Constantinople and Thrace . Now the question would be if him and his successor would be able to slowly expand into the Balkan and Anatolia like the ottoman
Moonlight in a Jar use a similar scenario is just ERE was already more strained because butterflies, if anything an early Muslim Balkans and Anatolia is a massive butterfly.
Yep Moonlight in a Jar was from where the idea of a Muslim hellenized Roman Empire come from for me . I already know about Tzachas ambition and tentative to become Roman Empire but it’s only when I learned about the battle of Levounion and his alliance with the Pecheneg that I started seeing possibility for him . Assuredly it’s a massive butterfly
 

raharris1973

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I think this is a fantastic idea.

I haven't tracked how the similar idea was developed in 'Moonlight in a Jar'. 1091 is before the 1st Knight's Jerusalem Crusade. Despite Tzachas' philhellenism, will his Ghazi supporters over time regard the regime as an Islamic Sultanate more than anything else?


We have discussed previously. I'd definitely watch an original take on this. I drew out a broad stroke timeline beforehand.

I just kind of tacked on a long-term trajectory of a Turkic-led Islamic state penetrating into southeastern Europe centuries earlier by advancing dates of Ottoman conquests about 3 centuries or so:


Screen Shot 2018-04-28 at 4.25.12 PM.png
 
I think this is a fantastic idea.

I haven't tracked how the similar idea was developed in 'Moonlight in a Jar'. 1091 is before the 1st Knight's Jerusalem Crusade. Despite Tzachas' philhellenism, will his Ghazi supporters over time regard the regime as an Islamic Sultanate more than anything else?
I actually see the reverse Tzachas Ghazi supporters will probably see the régime as an Islamic sultanate more than anything else at first despite Tzachas best effort but with time and co opting of the Roman institution the army of Tzachas state will see themselves as Roman Muslim but I will see it at being a long process .

We have discussed previously. I'd definitely watch an original take on this. I drew out a broad stroke timeline beforehand.

I just kind of tacked on a long-term trajectory of a Turkic-led Islamic state penetrating into southeastern Europe centuries earlier by advancing dates of Ottoman conquests about 3 centuries or so:
Honestly i’m a terrible writer so i’m just more proposing the idea than anything else . But yeah a Turkic led islamic state doing a ottoman analogue century earlier is definitely interesting. I also liked the idea of the Pecheneg surviving and settling in the Balkan and not being one of those forgotten Pontic steppe tribe .


View attachment 605013
Their development will certainly differ than this timeline but that give a good idea on how their Balkan expansion could go
 

Middle Ages or Roman history is not really my area.

My expectations...
- Roman Empire still exists
- Pechenegs besiege Constantinople
- But the lack of a fleet makes it impractical...
- That is where Chaka comes in...
- I don't know the State of the Roman Fleet in 1090 so I can't say anything about that
1. No large Roman fleet means Constantinople could surrender to Chaka
2. Existing Roman fleet means a victory is not guaranteed. Best option here is a betrayal of the Roman fleet
- The options are:
1. Chaka is invited by Roman nobles to take the Imperial Throne on the condition on converting to Christianity
2. Chaka takes it militarily

Option 1: the Roman Empire survives but the authority is rather low. Nobles on the frontier are not pleased with a Eastern Orthodox Turk as Emperor and side with the Normans/Bulgarian nobles. Could work out either way. Emperor Tzachas does not ask for a Crusade due to his ties with the Seljuks and can give priority for Europe.

Option 2: the Roman Empire is gone. Most nobles go their own way with Bulgaria becoming independent Tsardom/Kingdom covering most of the Eastern Balkans. The Bulgarians will be facing the Pecheneg invasions due to its vunerability before they can move against Constantinople.
Normans overrun most of Greece. These are the one who will move against Constantinople. The way for victory requires the Normans to get a large fleet (or a traitor in Constantinople to leave the gate open).
There is no call for a Crusade but the Papacy will support the Norman expedition to Constantinople. Whether it will lead beyond Constantinople depends to circumstances.
Chaka is rather weak in this situation though he can still count on the support of the Seljuks. I gotta say, the Seljuks could betray the weaker Chaka and rule Constantinople themselves later on. If Chaka can secure Thrace for himself he will be less dependent on the Seljuks and you could get a partly early Ottoman Analogue (with Constantinople without most of Anatolia).
 
- I don't know the State of the Roman Fleet in 1090 so I can't say anything about that
1. No large Roman fleet means Constantinople could surrender to Chaka
The Roman did have a fleet after earlier defeat aganst Tzachas Alexios I rebuild one .
2. Existing Roman fleet means a victory is not guaranteed. Best option here is a betrayal of the Roman fleet
Just read that the fleet commander Constantine Dalassenos was related to Alexios in a ideal scenario if Alexios survive the battle but his killed in Constantinople by his opposent Constantine could possibly betray . But that probably more a ideal scenario thqn anythyng
Option 2: the Roman Empire is gone. Most nobles go their own way with Bulgaria becoming independent Tsardom/Kingdom covering most of the Eastern Balkans. The Bulgarians will be facing the Pecheneg invasions due to its vunerability before they can move against Constantinople.
Normans overrun most of Greece. These are the one who will move against Constantinople. The way for victory requires the Normans to get a large fleet (or a traitor in Constantinople to leave the gate open).
There is no call for a Crusade but the Papacy will support the Norman expedition to Constantinople. Whether it will lead beyond Constantinople depends to circumstances.
Yeah I see it happening like that with possibly one or two rump Byzantine state surviving somewhere . But I will be surprised if the pope doesn’t do something bigger than just supporting the Norman probably not on the scale of OTL crusade but more in the line of this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_of_Barbastro
Chaka is rather weak in this situation though he can still count on the support of the Seljuks. I gotta say, the Seljuks could betray the weaker Chaka and rule Constantinople themselves later on. If Chaka can secure Thrace for himself he will be less dependent on the Seljuks and you could get a partly early Ottoman Analogue (with Constantinople without most of Anatolia).
I agree that Tzachas could be threatened by the Seljuk wanting to rule Constantinople themselves . But if Malik Shah still die around OTL and the Seljuk fall in civil war and Kilij Arslan still a child he might not be in so much danger and could even have a window of opportunity to expand in Anatolia or is this too ambitious ?
D2A8AAAD-0E64-42C3-ABA5-DDF74E09EBF2.jpeg

I’m thinking that the new state will approximately look like that
With the Bulgar in black pechenegs in green and Tzachas empire in red .
 
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The Roman did have a fleet after earlier defeat aganst Tzachas Alexios I rebuild one .

Just read that the fleet commander Constantine Dalassenos was related to Alexios in a ideal scenario if Alexios survive the battle but his killed in Constantinople by his opposent Constantine could possibly betray . But that probably more a ideal scenario thqn anythyng

Yeah I see it happening like that with possibly one or two rump Byzantine state surviving somewhere . But I will be surprised if the pope doesn’t do something bigger than just supporting the Norman probably not on the scale of OTL crusade but more in the line of this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_of_Barbastro

I agree that Tzachas could be threatened by the Seljuk wanting to rule Constantinople themselves . But if Malik Shah still die around OTL and the Seljuk fall in civil war and Kilij Arslan still a child he might not be in so much danger and could even have a window of opportunity to expand in Anatolia or is this to ambitious
View attachment 605439
I’m thinking that the new state will approximately look like that
With the Bulgar in black pechenegs in green and Tzachas empire in red .
I don't see the Pechenegs being very interested in ruling over the Bulgars in the southwest. They would probably consolidate themselves in Oltenia, Wallachia, and Moldavia.
 
I haven't tracked how the similar idea was developed in 'Moonlight in a Jar'. 1091 is before the 1st Knight's Jerusalem Crusade. Despite Tzachas' philhellenism, will his Ghazi supporters over time regard the regime as an Islamic Sultanate more than anything else?
In Moonlight, the conditions for the "Islamic Roman Empire" were very different from this scenario.
The ERE was significantly more incompetent and Anatolia was quickly conquered by the Turks long before OTL. Meanwhile, the Pechenegs took over Vlach/Bulgar lands for themselves, settling in and creating Patzinakia. Another onset of Justinian's Disease spelled the death knell for the Orthodox Romans, leading to the eventual free for all between the Pechenegs and Turks before a new dynasty of Muslim Pechenegs took over Rhomania/Romania.

At least the Bataids, the current ruling dynasty, enjoyed the support of Muslim Anatolian Greeks, Pechenegs, and Turks as the majority over the Christians long before their eventual rise, as the conquest/conversion of Anatolia and Patzinakia centuries ago proved crucial towards making a Hellenized Islamic Empire a reality.

Here, I reckon it would be significantly more difficult for Tzachas to assert power in a Roman court that is still largely Orthodox and quite powerful, as well as rule over a population that is not Muslim. Not to mention the weak position that he would be in between the Bulgars and the Normans, so that's even more problems that he has to deal with in order to reunite Romania back together again. Still, I kinda want someone to write this timeline since it would be very hard for someone like Tzachas or his descendants to win, but the rewards would be very much worth it, since it would result in a state that is neither the Orthodox ERE or the Ottoman Empire.
 

raharris1973

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If Turkic conquerors of whatever kind hold on to Thrace after this and withstand counter-onslaughts from Bulgarians and Normans and Imperials, they have a decent foundation to eventually expand. When we get to the 1200s, Hungary won't be catching too many breaks, because it will have to eat a Mongol invasion, so it won't be much of a bulwark in that century. Poland won't be able to lend a Sobieski either.

A question for the group --

I'm not sure if I I buy into it as a decisive factor, but people always mention the Islamic conquest of the straits as a factor in motivating the Age of Discovery. If the straits are held, and conquered, by Muslims centuries earlier, could this spur Atlantic exploration earlier, so that there's some results by the late 1200s/early 1300s before the Black Death hits? Or are technological enablers far more important than political control of routes here?

Also, are we supposing this aborts the Crusades movement in general, or redirects it? Will there be Crusades to the Levant in this TL at all? Would any succeed?

If they are aborted by the early fall of Constantinople, how does the absence of the Crusades affect Levantine and Egyptian development?

How would the lack of a Crusader movement (at least one so large and effective as in OTL) change Western Europe?
Would Europeans develop less of a taste for spices and other eastern goods?

On the bad side, would some of the warlike energy the Popes were hoping to divert outward be spent in internecine European wars?
On the good side, without the various taxes, tithes, and donations for Crusading, might there be more and better development of some manorial estates and a chance for different and in some cases better leaders to emerge in the west, rather than being Crusader casualties?
 
Here, I reckon it would be significantly more difficult for Tzachas to assert power in a Roman court that is still largely Orthodox and quite powerful, as well as rule over a population that is not Muslim. Not to mention the weak position that he would be in between the Bulgars and the Normans, so that's even more problems that he has to deal with in order to reunite Romania back together again. Still, I kinda want someone to write this timeline since it would be very hard for someone like Tzachas or his descendants to win, but the rewards would be very much worth it, since it would result in a state that is neither the Orthodox ERE or the Ottoman Empire.
Agree here that there position would be weaker than the Bataids and Tzachas and his state will face some serious challenge . Yeah a TL like that would be very welcome Tzachas was a interesting personage and what he was tryng to do was as much interesting.

A question for the group --

I'm not sure if I I buy into it as a decisive factor, but people always mention the Islamic conquest of the straits as a factor in motivating the Age of Discovery. If the straits are held, and conquered, by Muslims centuries earlier, could this spur Atlantic exploration earlier, so that there's some results by the late 1200s/early 1300s before the Black Death hits? Or are technological enablers far more important than political control of routes here?
Have seen a lot of people saying that too can’t really debunk or confirm but from what I understand it was more about the price being very high because of monopoly . . What does you mean by result exactly discovery of America ? Doesn’t really know much about the technological need but late 1200 early 1300 seem really early if thing go like OTL in Iberia the Christian would just have taken and absorbing most of Andalusia . Mid late 1300
Also, are we supposing this aborts the Crusades movement in general, or redirects it? Will there be Crusades to the Levant in this TL at all? Would any succeed?

If they are aborted by the early fall of Constantinople, how does the absence of the Crusades affect Levantine and Egyptian development?
I don’t think that Pope religious military expedition could be aborted by this point the Pope already sent proto-crusade before the Pope but they will probably be very different and relocalized . No crusade probably mean the Levant at least the coast fear of crusader invasion at make the mamluk take a policy that caused a decline of the Levantine coast from what I understand . Also the Bannu Ammar of Tripoli last longer which is pretty good for Tripoli as they were competent administrator also the lack of constant warfare between the crusade state and the muslim
How would the lack of a Crusader movement (at least one so large and effective as in OTL) change Western Europe?
Would Europeans develop less of a taste for spices and other eastern goods?
Probably a less present crusader spirit and some cultural change that happened by cultural exchange during the crusade . But most of the Muslim Christian exchange will still happen in Sicily and al Andalusia like OTL
On the bad side, would some of the warlike energy the Popes were hoping to divert outward be spent in internecine European wars?
On the good side, without the various taxes, tithes, and donations for Crusading, might there be more and better development of some manorial estates and a chance for different and in some cases better leaders to emerge in the west, rather than being Crusader casualties?
I think that might be a mix of the two
 
There is another aspect that I think needs to be considered: the defenses of Constantinople in the 11th century are formidable and can sustain a long siege. That means that the Turkish emir and his pecheneg allies must sustain the discipline of their followers (which would be more interested in securing plunder), must maintain maritime and land superiority (the emperor can make concessions to Venice or Genoa to upset this situation and can still conscript mercenaries from tribes inanimical to the pechenegs). It is not a easy mission to any invader.
 
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