WI: Katherine of Aragon dies in 1503 giving birth to Arthur's posthumous son

Given how few members of the royal family were left, trying to push Henry out of th epicure would be problematic. If his nephew died then it would be entirely up to him to keep the male line going. Not having Henry VIII (I know, not king here) also means England won’t have the glamor and strength they had internationally. I read somewhere that his reputation was enough to help them bunch above their weight class when t came to diplomacy. Made sense, as outside of France and Scandinaiva, there were not many kingdoms left that hadn’t been subsumed by the Habsburgs. Anyone know the history of Henry’s work ethic? I know that at least later one he basically just relied on his ministers and removed hem as he saw fit, with historians giving him the credit for their accomplishments. Might be here he focuses on being a knight chivalrous.
 
Traditions nonewithstanding, given memories of Richard III, I could envision Henry VII being strongly advised to send Prince Henry into "exile with the serial numbers filed off" or at least make provisions to exclude him from any position of power should he himself die before his grandson achieves maturity. He'll want to keep him alive as the proverbial spare, but also make sure history wont repeat itself.
Not to mention that with infant mortality being what it is at the time, if the grandson DOES in fact die from an accident or disease, it would also protect Prince Henry from being forever tainted with the suspicion of having murdered his nephew, if he's out of the country at the time.
English’s laws and traditions dictated who Henry would be his nephew’s regent AND I can not see Henry VII OR Margaret Beaufort denying him such role without any valid reason
 
Given how few members of the royal family were left, trying to push Henry out of th epicure would be problematic. If his nephew died then it would be entirely up to him to keep the male line going. Not having Henry VIII (I know, not king here) also means England won’t have the glamor and strength they had internationally. I read somewhere that his reputation was enough to help them bunch above their weight class when t came to diplomacy. Made sense, as outside of France and Scandinaiva, there were not many kingdoms left that hadn’t been subsumed by the Habsburgs. Anyone know the history of Henry’s work ethic? I know that at least later one he basically just relied on his ministers and removed hem as he saw fit, with historians giving him the credit for their accomplishments. Might be here he focuses on being a knight chivalrous.
Here, he will likely just be known as the handsome playboy, since he no longer has the kingly work dragging him down.
 
No way. That was NEVER planned in OTL and would make less sense here where only a baby boy stand between Henry and the Crown. Henry will need to marry for securing backup heirs to the Tudors
What woman of any status will want to marry the regent-not-king instead of betrothing their daughter to the actual king?
 
What woman of any status will want to marry the regent-not-king instead of betrothing their daughter to the actual king?
Women who are too old and too low for the actual king. Take Louis XII of France, for example, he wouldn't betroth Claude to Arthur Jr because it would mean giving the English a claim to Brittany, but he could betroth a high-ranked French noblewoman like Margaret of Angoulême or Madeleine de la Tour d'Auvergne to Henry. That way he gets an alliance.
 
Women who are too old and too low for the actual king. Take Louis XII of France, for example, he wouldn't betroth Claude to Arthur Jr because it would mean giving the English a claim to Brittany, but he could betroth a high-ranked French noblewoman like Margaret of Angoulême or Madeleine de la Tour d'Auvergne to Henry. That way he gets an alliance.
Margaret, his sister? Sure, but what is stopping Henry from wedding, for example, a daughter of Manuel I of Portugal?
 
Without any doubt as England’s traditions dictated that
William the Marshall was regent for Henry III and was not a blood relative at all.

There was technically a regency council for Edward III, but Roger Mortimer routinely ignored it and governed the kingdom as a would-be king himself.

There was a regency council for Richard II, from which all of his uncles were excluded.

There was a regency council for Henry VI, which expressly disavowed Henry V's plan for the regency by denying Humphrey of Gloucester the full powers of a regent.

Richard of Gloucester was intended to be protector, but usurped the crown from his kingly nephew.

There is no English tradition that a king's eldest male relative is to be a regent.
 
William the Marshall was regent for Henry III and was not a blood relative at all.

There was technically a regency council for Edward III, but Roger Mortimer routinely ignored it and governed the kingdom as a would-be king himself.

There was a regency council for Richard II, from which all of his uncles were excluded.

There was a regency council for Henry VI, which expressly disavowed Henry V's plan for the regency by denying Humphrey of Gloucester the full powers of a regent.

Richard of Gloucester was intended to be protector, but usurped the crown from his kingly nephew.

There is no English tradition that a king's eldest male relative is to be a regent.
True, but there isn't a lot of option, unless Ferdinand of Aragon rides into England to take control
 
Margaret, his sister? Sure, but what is stopping Henry from wedding, for example, a daughter of Manuel I of Portugal?
Margaret was the sister of the future Francis I, who then was just the heir presumptive
Manuel’s daughters are way too young for Henry AND his father will want marry them to rulers
 
Margaret was the sister of the future Francis I, who then was just the heir presumptive
Manuel’s daughters are way too young for Henry AND his father will want marry them to rulers
True, but it's not like there are enough rulers to go around...so Henry marries Margaret, forming a French alliance, while Katherine's son marries god-knows-who, maybe Isabella of Portugal, and rules England the literal second he turns 18?
 
True, but it's not like there are enough rulers to go around...so Henry marries Margaret, forming a French alliance, while Katherine's son marries god-knows-who, maybe Isabella of Portugal, and rules England the literal second he turns 18?
One of the Austrian girls is a likelier bride than their cousins from Portugal for the son of Arthur and Catherine (and Manuel will likely offer Beatrice for the young King of England). In any case Henry VII will be the one to arrange the matches so…
 
One of the Austrian girls is a likelier bride than their cousins from Portugal for the son of Arthur and Catherine (and Manuel will likely offer Beatrice for the young King of England). In any case Henry VII will be the one to arrange the matches so…
Henry VII will die before the son can marry, so it will be up to the king's uncle, also called Henry, to ultimately call the shots. Henry 7th forced Henry 8th to repudiate his betrothal to Katherine of Aragon in 1505. Guess what happened...?
 
Seems part of the marriage of Katherine of Aragorn miiight be attributed to her family having some distant claims to England, bloodline wise. Her family made no claim to the crown, but she added legitimacy into the blood of her child. Henry VIII (I am sure we can refer to him as this even though he might not be king here) might get a local bride or one who is foreign, but it will need to be someone high ranked. An heiress would be best if in England (or even Scotland, but might be iffy there) but you certainly won’t see the French allowing him to marry someone who would inherit land in France, though I am unsure if people could claim the land of their wives there, or if women were allow d to inherit land. Might just have been the crown, or they just forbid foreigners from inheriting. Since the French crown had claims when a line end, I presume they wanted to have as short a list of possible heirs for lands as possible. Speaking of dowries, Katherine’s family only ever paid half, though I don’t know if they stopped paying early on or if it wasn’t until after her husband died. Henry VII apparently would not return the other half, despite dowries being meant women to support themselves when a husband died. I don’t know if there was any diplomatic friction about it, but we can probably assume no money ends up changing hands, and whatever jewels Katherine has ends up locked in some chest in England.

 
Seems part of the marriage of Katherine of Aragorn miiight be attributed to her family having some distant claims to England, bloodline wise. Her family made no claim to the crown, but she added legitimacy into the blood of her child. Henry VIII (I am sure we can refer to him as this even though he might not be king here) might get a local bride or one who is foreign, but it will need to be someone high ranked. An heiress would be best if in England (or even Scotland, but might be iffy there) but you certainly won’t see the French allowing him to marry someone who would inherit land in France, though I am unsure if people could claim the land of their wives there, or if women were allow d to inherit land. Might just have been the crown, or they just forbid foreigners from inheriting. Since the French crown had claims when a line end, I presume they wanted to have as short a list of possible heirs for lands as possible. Speaking of dowries, Katherine’s family only ever paid half, though I don’t know if they stopped paying early on or if it wasn’t until after her husband died. Henry VII apparently would not return the other half, despite dowries being meant women to support themselves when a husband died. I don’t know if there was any diplomatic friction about it, but we can probably assume no money ends up changing hands, and whatever jewels Katherine has ends up locked in some chest in England.

Since Katherine is dead ITTL, her jewels do not really matter, especially as she only has a son, not a daughter ITTL. Henry, the Duke of York could wed Anne Boleyn as his first wife if he fancies a local bride, but there aren't that many English noblewomen around...
 
Is it possible H7 lives longer here?
Would he remarry?
If OTL what age will Arthur Jr be when H7 dies?
What age is Uncle Henry DoY when H7 dies and Arthur Jr becomes King?
Is Uncle Henry DoY old enough himself to chair a Regency council or would an ‘older hand’ take it on?
Could Uncle Henry DoY marry someone from Scotland rather than the continent?
Could Arthur Jr marry someone from Scotland rather than the continent?
What are the odds on Arthur Jr inheriting the Tudor problem with make heirs?
 
Is it possible H7 lives longer here
Yes, but probably not much longer than in OTL.
Would he remarry?
No, he didn't remarry in otl when he had only one male heir. Now he has two so he has less reason to remarry.
If OTL what age will Arthur Jr be when H7 dies
Around 6 or 7.
What age is Uncle Henry DoY when H7 dies and Arthur Jr becomes King?
Almost 18.
Is Uncle Henry DoY old enough himself to chair a Regency council or would an ‘older hand’ take it on?
I think that Henry would be part of a regency council but not the sole regent. There's also Margaret Beaufort, in otl she was Henry VIII's regent for a few weeks until he turned 18, so I could see her being part of the regency council for her great-grandson.
Could Uncle Henry DoY marry someone from Scotland rather than the continent?
In theory, yes but I can't think of any Scottish brides for him and he'll probably be better off with a French proxy bride or a local heiress.
Could Arthur Jr marry someone from Scotland rather than the continent?
Unlikely.
What are the odds on Arthur Jr inheriting the Tudor problem with make heirs?
I don't know.
 
True, but there isn't a lot of option, unless Ferdinand of Aragon rides into England to take control
There is the entire peerage and Henry's various administrators. It seems very likely that Henry VII would set up a council system with clearly defined roles (not unlike what Henry VIII had envisioned for Edward in OTL) considering the government that Henry built and also the fact that England hadn't had a real regent since the early 13th century.
 
Madeleine de la Tour work nicely as Scottish-proxy being both a French heiress (and distant relative of the King of France) and the cousin, ward and sister-in-law of the Duke of Albany. England has already ties to Scotland with Margaret‘s wedding to James V
 
There is the entire peerage and Henry's various administrators. It seems very likely that Henry VII would set up a council system with clearly defined roles (not unlike what Henry VIII had envisioned for Edward in OTL) considering the government that Henry built and also the fact that England hadn't had a real regent since the early 13th century.
There is an entire peerage, but knowing how Edward VI's regency council went IOTL, do you honestly think Henry will want that for his nephew especially since he will be alive to witness it? Naaaah. Either he and his grandmother are co-regents, or he's an overwhelmingly dominant regent in the council of regents, ooooorrrr he marries one of Katherine's relatives and she becomes regent?
 
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