WI: Katherine of Aragon Born Male

Who Should Fernando Jnr/Alfonso XII Marry?

  • Margaret of Austria (b.1480)

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • Yolande Louise of Savoy (b.1487)

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • Giovanna of Naples (b.1477)

    Votes: 2 7.4%
  • Charlotte of Naples-Apulia (b.1480)

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • Bona Sforza (b.1494)

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • Sidonie of Bavaria (b.1488)

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • Anne Lascaris (b.1487)

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • Suzanne de Bourbon (b.1491)

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • Marie d'Albret, Countess of Rethel (b.1491)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Germaine de Foix (b.1488)/Anne de Foix-Candale (b.1484)/Anne d'Albret (b.1492)

    Votes: 12 44.4%
  • Margaret Tudor (b.1489)/Elizabeth Tudor (b.1492)

    Votes: 12 44.4%
  • Elisabeth of Denmark (b.1485)

    Votes: 2 7.4%
  • Elisabeth of Poland (b.1482)

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • Total voters
    27
Sorry to jump off my Hungarian bit, but I just realized I missed Katherine of Aragon's birthday yesterday. (sorry @BlueFlowwer and any other Katherine lovers)

So, in honour of the woman, who Thomas Cromwell wrote of: "were it not for her gender she would've eclipsed all the heroes of history", let's set that to rights. The baby Queen Isabel delivers shortly before Christmas 1485 is the much longed for second son (insert name here). OTL Catalina's early life is more or less unremarked upon because she was "just another infanta".

This boy should still have Katherine's qualities, i.e. her tenacity, bravery, stubbornness, skill at statecraft (that was only allowed to shine through for a brief moment before Henry resolved to never again allow her such influence), and whatever it was about her that made St. Thomas More (?) refer to her as "the queen of hearts".

Obviously this will mean a very different future for not only England, but Spain too. No Habsburg inheritance when her brother, Juan dies in the late 1490s. Does boy-Catalina inherit her older brother's widow as Henry inherited Arthur's OTL? I think most of the major changes are only gonna start happening after 1497 (barring Columbus deciding that the Spanish have kept him waiting long enough - he was on his way out of Spain when he was summoned to court IIRC - and heading elsewhere; or Granada NOT falling), but happen they will nonetheless.
 
I think male Catherine would be named Ferdinand IMHO.
Would Henry VII ask for Maria's hand for Arthur in such situation? Before Juan's death Fernando and Isabel should have no problem with this.
 
I think male Catherine would be named Ferdinand IMHO.
Would Henry VII ask for Maria's hand for Arthur in such situation? Before Juan's death Fernando and Isabel should have no problem with this.

I don't think so, no. In fact, I'm not sure who Henry would marry his son and heir to. Maria of Aragon and Margarethe of Austria are both to old, and the French only have royal nieces (Suzanne de Bourbon, Anne d'Albret and Germaine de Foix).

Any particular why you were thinking Fernando? I was wondering about Alfonso or maybe Pedro (Enrique seems unlikely but would make a delicious twist of irony)
 
Any particular why you were thinking Fernando? I was wondering about Alfonso or maybe Pedro (Enrique seems unlikely but would make a delicious twist of irony)
Common practice among European royalty of the time: firstborn son named after paternal grandfather, second son named after father.
 
I don't think so, no. In fact, I'm not sure who Henry would marry his son and heir to. Maria of Aragon and Margarethe of Austria are both to old, and the French only have royal nieces (Suzanne de Bourbon, Anne d'Albret and Germaine de Foix).

Any particular why you were thinking Fernando? I was wondering about Alfonso or maybe Pedro (Enrique seems unlikely but would make a delicious twist of irony)
Or Sidonie of Bavaria.
 
Ferdinand (16/12/1485–7/1/1556) m. 1514 Bona Sforza (2 February 1494 – 19 November 1557)
Isabella (18/1/1519–15/9/1559) m. 1533, Henry II of France (31/3/1519–10/7/1559)
Ferdinand (1/8/1520–7/6/1572)
Maria (13/7/1522–28/5/1575)
Joanna (18/10/1523–9/9/1596)
Catherine (1/11/1526–16/9/1583)​

Became King Ferdinand V of Castile and Leon on 28 November 1504, following his mother, Isabella I the Catholic's death, King Ferdinand III of Aragon on January 23, 1516, following the death of his father, Ferdinand II the Catholic, and then the first King of a United Spain on January 30, 1516, with the crowning by Cardinal Fray Francisco Jiménez de Cisneros.
 
I'm not sold on the Bona as queen of Spain idea, since little Nando's existence could change a lot (for instance, they could marry him to Anne d'Albret or Germaine de Foix with the eye to annexing Navarre by marriage - with a French alliance thrown into the bargain). Fernando himself might decide against the whole thing with Naples (if his niece's husband were to survive his seemingly random OTL death - Fernando might hold off conquering Naples TTL. His reasons for doing so always seemed a bit like Henry VIII's going to France in the 1540s (i.e. a midlife crisis kinda thing) to me).

Spanish kings don't get crowned (at least not since Pedro the Just's reign IIRC), but I think Nando might decide that it's a good time to "revive" such a tradition, although the where (Castile or Aragonese territory?) and who (the archbishop of Toledo (primate of Spain) or Saragossa (Aragon's highest ranked cleric AIUI) to officiate?) I could imagine being a nightmare, since you'd have to ensure parity between the two kingdom's to avoid snubbing one/other.

Or Sidonie of Bavaria.

For Arthur/Henry? Or Nando Jr?

Common practice among European royalty of the time: firstborn son named after paternal grandfather, second son named after father.

Fernando a.k.a. Nando Jr it is.
 
If it was cancer that killed Arthur, he'll likely simply die before his marriage. Finding wife for Henry VIII (assume that it is butterfly net) would be easier (Eleanor of Austria seems likely). Would Fernando jr marry his brother's widow? There is no way to pretend, that Margaret's marriage with Juan was not consumated if she's pregnant.
 
I think being the most powerful monarch in Europe would be considerably better for Catherine than being in the vicinity of Henry VIII. Ferdinand would be a good name.

Ferdinand V of Castile and III of Aragon b 1485 or Ferdinand the Great m a)Anne of Foix-Candale b 1484 d 1512, b)Mary Tudor b 1496

Issue: Anne of Foix-Candale

Infanta Isabella b 1503
Juan III of Spain 1506
Infanta Catalina b 1507 d 1510
Infante Alphonso b 1510 (stillborn)
Infante Ferdinand b 1512

Issue: Mary Tudor

Infanta Anna b 1515
Infante Pedro b 1519
Infante Enrique b 1522 d 1523
Infanta Maria
 
I want Anne for a few reasons: she is a member of the Foix family, she might be able to bring some peace with France, she's appropriate in age, given that Juan had just died they might want a bride that is Ferdinands age to prevent waiting and instability.

Given Isabella I has one son left she might live a bit longer that OTL and now that she has proper spanish grandchildren she might make it to 1510 atleast. Ferdinand II can die in 1513 annexing Navarre and making Ferdinand both king of Navarre and Aragon as well.
 
I'm not sold on the Bona as queen of Spain idea, since little Nando's existence could change a lot (for instance, they could marry him to Anne d'Albret or Germaine de Foix with the eye to annexing Navarre by marriage - with a French alliance thrown into the bargain). Fernando himself might decide against the whole thing with Naples (if his niece's husband were to survive his seemingly random OTL death - Fernando might hold off conquering Naples TTL. His reasons for doing so always seemed a bit like Henry VIII's going to France in the 1540s (i.e. a midlife crisis kinda thing) to me).

Spanish kings don't get crowned (at least not since Pedro the Just's reign IIRC), but I think Nando might decide that it's a good time to "revive" such a tradition, although the where (Castile or Aragonese territory?) and who (the archbishop of Toledo (primate of Spain) or Saragossa (Aragon's highest ranked cleric AIUI) to officiate?) I could imagine being a nightmare, since you'd have to ensure parity between the two kingdom's to avoid snubbing one/other.



For Arthur/Henry? Or Nando Jr?



Fernando a.k.a. Nando Jr it is.

For Arthur/Henry.
 
If it was cancer that killed Arthur, he'll likely simply die before his marriage. Finding wife for Henry VIII (assume that it is butterfly net) would be easier (Eleanor of Austria seems likely). Would Fernando jr marry his brother's widow? There is no way to pretend, that Margaret's marriage with Juan was not consumated if she's pregnant.

I read somewhere that Isabel's last pregnancy was a stillbirth/miscarriage in 1490, so if butterflies affect this, and said child is born alive (and is female) she'd make a decent match for Henry/Arthur. Though IIRC the same source basically implied that Fernando got tired of sleeping with Isabel after Catalina was born since her womb only ever brought another infanta.

But I digress, they would not sue for a dispensation for grounds of non-consummation (kings marrying his late wife's sister wasn't unheard of (if not common), and I'm not sure if dispensations were ever denied for that; this is just a turn around of that). The widowed Margarethe was offered in the marriage market by Fernando to James IV of Scots (when James pressed for a match with Maria of Aragon OTL, Fernando and Isabel were only willing to play ball if England didn't. So James was offered the choice of one of Fernando's bastard daughters - the source doesn't specify whether this was the duquesa de Frias or her half-sister, Maria Esperanza - with a fat dowry to cover her illegitimacy; or Fernando's widowed daughter-in-law (which shows just what a crafty man Fernando was, he'd get an alliance to Scotland and it wouldn't cost him a cent, Maximilian was understandably furious when he heard about it) for a bride instead).

For Arthur/Henry.

Okay

I think being the most powerful monarch in Europe would be considerably better for Catherine than being in the vicinity of Henry VIII. Ferdinand would be a good name.

Ferdinand V of Castile and III of Aragon b 1485 or Ferdinand the Great m a)Anne of Foix-Candale b 1484 d 1512, b)Mary Tudor b 1496

Issue: Anne of Foix-Candale

Infanta Isabella b 1503
Juan III of Spain 1506
Infanta Catalina b 1507 d 1510
Infante Alphonso b 1510 (stillborn)
Infante Ferdinand b 1512

Issue: Mary Tudor

Infanta Anna b 1515
Infante Pedro b 1519
Infante Enrique b 1522 d 1523
Infanta Maria

I wonder if Isabella would be offered for alt-Karl V here? Maybe Juan for the OTL queen of Portugal and Eleonore can either wed Miguel de la Paz/João III/Louis XII TTL. But that's assuming ANYTHING still looks like OTL 20years on (1505).

If Fernando jr marries Anne de Foix then Vladislaus II of Hungary would likely marry Germaine de Foix.

Presumably. So Hungary's ruler is not retarded (which may be a good thing - doesn't mean he'll be a better ruler, though), or at least has a seemingly capable regent (Germaine) to fall back on if he IS of the weaker sort.

I want Anne for a few reasons: she is a member of the Foix family, she might be able to bring some peace with France, she's appropriate in age, given that Juan had just died they might want a bride that is Ferdinands age to prevent waiting and instability.

Given Isabella I has one son left she might live a bit longer that OTL and now that she has proper spanish grandchildren she might make it to 1510 atleast. Ferdinand II can die in 1513 annexing Navarre and making Ferdinand both king of Navarre and Aragon as well.

Am I wrong in thinking that Fernando's likely to leave Naples alone if he can worry about Navarre? (Or his nephew-in-law survives)? I get the impression that Federigo IV's ties to France (a late wife who was the French king's niece, and a daughter married to a Frenchman; etc) made him distinctly uncomfortable.
 
I think that without the hapsburg being everywhere Spain and Portugal might focus their children's marriage away to other nations, Napels, Italian duchies, Scotland perhaps.
 
I think who the second son of Ferdinand and Isabella will likely named Alfonso or Ferdinand.
Arthur Tudor will be likely married to Maria (Henry was engaged to the seven years older Katherine so I can not see why Arthur can not marry Maria) and after his death Henry to Eleanor of Austria.
As bride for Ferdinand/Alfonso either Germaine of Foix or Anne d’Albret or Sidonie of Bavaria (niece of the Emperor) for another imperial match.
Anne of Foix-Candale is not interesting for a Navarrese match as she is much lower than the other two so she will marry Vladislaus as OTL
 
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So what would happen with Margaret of Austria?

Probably as OTL, but for some reason, the idea of seeing her end up in Scotland is strangely fascinating. I mean she was a pretty competent regent in the Low Countries for almost 3 decades, and I like any scenario where Gretl ends up with kids. Imagine her as Mrs. James IV? could be a fun ride
 
Probably as OTL, but for some reason, the idea of seeing her end up in Scotland is strangely fascinating. I mean she was a pretty competent regent in the Low Countries for almost 3 decades, and I like any scenario where Gretl ends up with kids. Imagine her as Mrs. James IV? could be a fun ride
Margaret was likely unable to have children after her miscarriage and James IV has already his perfect bride in Margaret Tudor...
Maybe a longer wedding with the Duke of Savoy would be good for Margaret of Austria...
 
Margaret was likely unable to have children after her miscarriage and James IV has already his perfect bride in Margaret Tudor...
Maybe a longer wedding with the Duke of Savoy would be good for Margaret of Austria...

That's OTL. With a POD before the birth of Margarethe's pregnancy as well as the birth of Margaret Tudor things might be different.
But I do concur that Margarethe as queen of Scots is about as much of a stretch as James' prior suit to Bianca Maria Sforza (OTL Holy Roman Empress, duchess of Savoy) was. Still, it's one of those alt-history ideas with the right POD that could make for an interesting TL, don't you think? @kasumigenx?
 
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