I was going to do a thread with a Pod of no French invasion of Algeria but remarked that I found the idea of a Abdelkader ruled Algeria more interesting than a surviving regency of Algiers and he won’t rule Algeria without French invasion . The POD isn’t really important there may can even be several (would be something like his victory being somehow greater and him managing to take Oran in the aftermath , the tribe of the west joining to him , Louis Phillipe becoming convinced that the conquest is a waste of energy and ressource , French troop evacuating Algeria like they did in Mexico , Abdelkader taking Algiers following the French departure and him imposing his authority in all of Algeria) . I’m more interested in the effect of him ruling Algeria and his Emirate surviving longer would he be some sort of Muhammad Ali of Algeria more tied to religion ? He seemed competent and realized the need of reform (military economically) and industrialization . What would be the effect on Algeria with less destructive effect of the French conquest and he ruling for some 35 year ? On France with no conquest of Algeria there a lot of butterfly here ? On the Ottoman Empire ? The Maghreb ? The Islamic world in general possibly his ideology of reform tied to religion become more popular ?
 
No genocide means more people in Algeria, and the Maghreb separates from the ottomans early, maybe the new emirate takes Lybia from the ottomans. Either way European domination of the Arab world is butterfly to either later or never. maybe the Moroccans take over Algeria.
 
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I was going to do a thread with a Pod of no French invasion of Algeria but remarked that I found the idea of a Abdelkader ruled Algeria more interesting than a surviving regency of Algiers and he won’t rule Algeria without French invasion . The POD isn’t really important there may can even be several (would be something like his victory being somehow greater and him managing to take Oran in the aftermath , the tribe of the west joining to him , Louis Phillipe becoming convinced that the conquest is a waste of energy and ressource , French troop evacuating Algeria like they did in Mexico , Abdelkader taking Algiers following the French departure and him imposing his authority in all of Algeria) . I’m more interested in the effect of him ruling Algeria and his Emirate surviving longer would he be some sort of Muhammad Ali of Algeria more tied to religion ? He seemed competent and realized the need of reform (military economically) and industrialization . What would be the effect on Algeria with less destructive effect of the French conquest and he ruling for some 35 year ? On France with no conquest of Algeria there a lot of butterfly here ? On the Ottoman Empire ? The Maghreb ? The Islamic world in general possibly his ideology of reform tied to religion become more popular ?

An idea is if Spain or someone weaker like the Two Sicilies occupies Algiers. Emir Abdelkader was quite effective fighting the French. Emir Abdelkader still takes arms as a Christian Power has taken Algiers. If Spain invades Algiers in 1830 it is just three years until Fernando VII dies and the Carlist Wars break out.

Or you can do it as you described. I forgot to read the entire post :/

Independent Algiers is a relief for the whole Maghreb

Edit...

Mehmed Ali was like most other autonomous Pashas. He tried to extract as much wealth as possible with his reforms. While these reforms are promising, Algiers also needs a good successor otherwise it could easily end up occupied like Tunisia and Egypt.
 
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No genocide means more people in Algeria, and the Maghreb separates from the ottomans early, maybe the new emirate takes Lydia from the ottomans. Either way European domination of the Arab world is butterfly to either later or never.

Algiers was in all but name independent from the Ottoman Empire in 1829. Personally... I think Algiers will ratify Ottoman Overlordship by the 1840s to make sure they already belong to some Nation while doing its own thing like Tunis. Whether the new Emirate takes over Libya is up to assumptions and I assume there is littlr chance to happen as 1). Tunis is in between 2). By the time Algiers has a formidable force for its size Tunis will be too much invested by Italians and the Ottomans will heed the call for aid from Tunisia if it is needed.

Personally Emir Abdelkader will not attack for the sake of conquest. He will lose his credibility among the population. I must remind you that reality does not work like Victoria II, where you can create an Algerian empire over Africa and the Arab World.

Whether the occupation of the Arab world is butterflied away depends on the finances of the Arab entities as Tunis, Morocco and Egypt + the ability of the Ottomans to complain against a European occupation. Apart of Algiers, all other Arab lands were occupied past 1878, somewhat confirming the importance of an influential Ottoman Empire.
 
Algiers was in all but name independent from the Ottoman Empire in 1829. Personally... I think Algiers will ratify Ottoman Overlordship by the 1840s to make sure they already belong to some Nation while doing its own thing like Tunis. Whether the new Emirate takes over Libya is up to assumptions and I assume there is littlr chance to happen as 1). Tunis is in between 2). By the time Algiers has a formidable force for its size Tunis will be too much invested by Italians and the Ottomans will heed the call for aid from Tunisia if it is needed.

Personally Emir Abdelkader will not attack for the sake of conquest. He will lose his credibility among the population. I must remind you that reality does not work like Victoria II, where you can create an Algerian empire over Africa and the Arab World.

Whether the occupation of the Arab world is butterflied away depends on the finances of the Arab entities as Tunis, Morocco and Egypt + the ability of the Ottomans to complain against a European occupation. Apart of Algiers, all other Arab lands were occupied past 1878, somewhat confirming the importance of an influential Ottoman Empire.
What about the Morrocans taking over algeria?
 
That's because they were A. Foreign, B, had the wrong religion, and C. did not know the landscape or how to divide and conquer the region. The Moroccans are all those things plus the sultans have the prestige of being descended from Muhammad; they would be able to pull it off; plus Historical; what is today known as Algeria and Morocco were ruled by the same kingdoms. Also I think that the new Algerian emirate would throw off Turkish over lordship as the Ottoman empire was a sinking ship by the time of 1830's(as the Egyptians nearly took out the ottomans and had to be stopped by foreign powers). Another point that I would like to make is that Italians only took interest in Tunisia after 1862; which by then either A. the Tunisians would throw off Turkish over lordship or B. Algeria would take interest in taking over Tunisia.
 
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No genocide means more people in Algeria, and the Maghreb separates from the ottomans early, maybe the new emirate takes Lybia from the ottomans. Either way European domination of the Arab world is butterfly to either later or never. maybe the Moroccans take over Algeria.
Yes between 500 000 and 1 000 000 people on a population of 3 million died because of the French conquest and literacy rate literally dropped too . Maghreb was already independant in all but name from the ottoman with the exception of Libya . And I don’t see the Emirate of Algeria taking Libya for a lot of reason first Tunisia is between the two . Two Abdelkader legitimacy was built on fighting the French and his religiousity i’m sure that fighting other Muslim for the Unification of Algeria and resisting the French would be completely acceptable for his follower but launching a unprovoked war against fellow Muslim in Libya for satisfying his non existing imperialistic goal less so and I don’t see he doing it anyway . On the ottoman I see him remaining under nominal ottoman vasality but trying to be his own thing like Muhammad Ali . A Moroccan take over of Algeria is extremely unlikely the French have harder time by far fighting Abdelkader than the Moroccan when he only ruled only part of western Algeria and Morocco at the time as his own problem to go on foreign adventure .
 
An idea is if Spain or someone weaker like the Two Sicilies occupies Algiers. Emir Abdelkader was quite effective fighting the French. Emir Abdelkader still takes arms as a Christian Power has taken Algiers. If Spain invades Algiers in 1830 it is just three years until Fernando VII dies and the Carlist Wars break out.
Good idea it will be far easier to do a Spanish defeat than a French one
Or you can do it as you described. I forgot to read the entire post :/

Independent Algiers is a relief for the whole Maghreb

Edit...

Mehmed Ali was like most other autonomous Pashas. He tried to extract as much wealth as possible with his reforms. While these reforms are promising, Algiers also needs a good successor otherwise it could easily end up occupied like Tunisia and Egypt.
Don’t know a lot about his sons honestly but I agree
 
Good idea it will be far easier to do a Spanish defeat than a French one

Don’t know a lot about his sons honestly but I agree

Well considering Emir Abdelkader lived until 1883 in OTL it shouldn't really worry you too much if your PoD is still 1830. That is still 53 years + the years you want to add for him (He died aged 74, he could maybe live longer until 85 or so. You decide...). Which means you can redirect Algiers to any route you want.

I gotta say... if you start this TL I would definitely follow...
 
Yes between 500 000 and 1 000 000 people on a population of 3 million died because of the French conquest and literacy rate literally dropped too . Maghreb was already independant in all but name from the ottoman with the exception of Libya . And I don’t see the Emirate of Algeria taking Libya for a lot of reason first Tunisia is between the two . Two Abdelkader legitimacy was built on fighting the French and his religiousity i’m sure that fighting other Muslim for the Unification of Algeria and resisting the French would be completely acceptable for his follower but launching a unprovoked war against fellow Muslim in Libya for satisfying his non existing imperialistic goal less so and I don’t see he doing it anyway . On the ottoman I see him remaining under nominal ottoman vasality but trying to be his own thing like Muhammad Ali . A Moroccan take over of Algeria is extremely unlikely the French have harder time by far fighting Abdelkader than the Moroccan when he only ruled only part of western Algeria and Morocco at the time as his own problem to go on foreign adventure .

Wow... our minds are almost the same XD

The literacy part I did not know... That is a huge advantage. In OTL the Tatars of Russia and Central Asia had also higher literacy rates, mostly due to Russian Rule making it easier. It was one of the most developed parts of learning in the Islamic World AFAIK, having the potential of keeping it if it wasn't for the Communist takeover. If Algiers is one part of the Islamic World that has high literacy this can influence far into Africa were Muslims are. Especially within the same madhab as most African Muslims belong to the Maliki madhab like Algerians.

Another thing, Libya was until 1835 like the rest of the Ottoman vassals semi independent. A successful war by Algiers against the European Invader could alter this (Mahmud II took advantage of the situation, after the fall of Algiers.) He may let Tripoli remain in the same way as Algiers and Tunis under Senussi Rule even if he invaded as North Africa is not compromised by European Invaders.
 
Well considering Emir Abdelkader lived until 1883 in OTL it shouldn't really worry you too much if your PoD is still 1830. That is still 53 years + the years you want to add for him (He died aged 74, he could maybe live longer until 85 or so. You decide...). Which means you can redirect Algiers to any route you want.

I gotta say... if you start this TL I would definitely follow...
Yes he was pretty young when he have been elected to power him having a long reign and literally shaping algeria would be a thing i would like to see . Honestly i would also like to see a TL about Abdelkader Emirate of Algeria but i’m already not confident in my capacity as a writer but english is also not my first or even second language for me too write in it . Also i only have superficial knowledge about Abdelkader and his emirate but i found interesting both him and what he was trying to do that why i started this thread
 
Wow... our minds are almost the same XD

The literacy part I did not know... That is a huge advantage. In OTL the Tatars of Russia and Central Asia had also higher literacy rates, mostly due to Russian Rule making it easier. It was one of the most developed parts of learning in the Islamic World AFAIK, having the potential of keeping it if it wasn't for the Communist takeover. If Algiers is one part of the Islamic World that has high literacy this can influence far into Africa were Muslims are. Especially within the same madhab as most African Muslims belong to the Maliki madhab like Algerians.

Another thing, Libya was until 1835 like the rest of the Ottoman vassals semi independent. A successful war by Algiers against the European Invader could alter this (Mahmud II took advantage of the situation, after the fall of Algiers.) He may let Tripoli remain in the same way as Algiers and Tunis under Senussi Rule even if he invaded as North Africa is not compromised by European Invaders.
Oh interesting i forgot when exactly the ottoman have imposed direct rule in Tripolitania that would be a good butterfly a Senussi Libya is something i would like to see but could a lack of direct ottoman presence result in a egyptian Cyrenaica ? (To be honest I proposed that because I think it would make a beautifull border to Egypt and have been frequently part of Egypt) contrary to say Tunisia Muhammad Ali Egypt as the will and possibility to extend or are they just no interested in the region since they never have taken it during the ottoman egyptian war ?
 
Yes he was pretty young when he have been elected to power him having a long reign and literally shaping algeria would be a thing i would like to see . Honestly i would also like to see a TL about Abdelkader Emirate of Algeria but i’m already not confident in my capacity as a writer but english is also not my first or even second language for me too write in it . Also i only have superficial knowledge about Abdelkader and his emirate but i found interesting both him and what he was trying to do that why i started this thread

I am willing to help you if you want to start.
 
Oh interesting i forgot when exactly the ottoman have imposed direct rule in Tripolitania that would be a good butterfly a Senussi Libya is something i would like to see but could a lack of direct ottoman presence result in a egyptian Cyrenaica ? (To be honest I proposed that because I think it would make a beautifull border to Egypt and have been frequently part of Egypt) contrary to say Tunisia Muhammad Ali Egypt as the will and possibility to extend or are they just no interested in the region since they never have taken it during the ottoman egyptian war ?

Senussis start to play a bigger role in the mid 19th century. The Ottomans deposed a the old dynasty. It won't be far fetched the Ottomans choose a new Bey over Libya.

Mehmed Ali going for Libya is unlikely IMO. It's a pretty worthless place. If he feels to expand beyond the Levant and Sudan it might be Iraq as it resembles Egypt more. It could happen but he may need a reason (Ergo: Mehmed Ali is awarded Libya in 1835 by Mahmud II, in exchange for Crete). Like with the Ottomans, Egypt can also choose to elect a new bey as a subordinate of Cairo. And they may also come from the Senussis.

Interesting, Emir Abdelkader (or his father) belonged to the Senussi Order.
 
Abdelkader would pursue a middle path. In terms of foreign policy, that constitutes forming relationships with with European powers that would keep France's worst impulses in check (Britain?) while not becoming seen as an enemy or target by the French. Abdelkader build his nascent state as a theocracy but did not shy away from employing Jews and Christians when it suited his purposes. Algeria has coal reserves though few compared to France, Spain and even Italy. Abdelkader and his successor will remain closely tied to Constantinople until it is no longer convenient to remain "legally" part of the Empire.
 
Abdelkader would pursue a middle path. In terms of foreign policy, that constitutes forming relationships with with European powers that would keep France's worst impulses in check (Britain?) while not becoming seen as an enemy or target by the French. Abdelkader build his nascent state as a theocracy but did not shy away from employing Jews and Christians when it suited his purposes. Algeria has coal reserves though few compared to France, Spain and even Italy. Abdelkader and his successor will remain closely tied to Constantinople until it is no longer convenient to remain "legally" part of the Empire.
I agree but do you think that Abdelkader reform will succed in economical military or state building term ? It seemed that his state modernization was done in a very native way wich Is what I find intereting
 
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