WI: Dutch Mississippi/Deep South

[AltoRegnant]

The dutch stand out as the only colonial great power without a major american plantation colony; surinam and the dutch caribbean being small potatoes compared to brazil, BNA, Haiti, and Cuba. So that got me thinking; as america would come to realize, the Mississippi Delta is premier territory for that kind of agriculture. So, since the Dutch west india company was established decades before french ventures into the region, what if they went in to the deep south of the US?

Spain is the biggest problem, since during negotiations for the 12 year truce they refused any deal allowing for a WEIC or trade in the americas. And since this is right on their doorstep, I think they need a serious naval defeat at the hands of the dutch, or for france to get involved in the first phase of the revolt (pre 12YT) and cut the spanish road. Probably both.

Alternatively, a spanish colony is founded but mostly settled by dutchmen, and sides accordingly. But that sounds difficult to keep in the context of the war.

Some ground rules:
-They have to keep the colony up until 1795, the year britain snatched the cape in otl.

-they dont nessicarily need to hold the entire Mississippi delta, but the otl states of Louisianna, Mississippi, and Arkansas should be on lock, since they're the southern part of the Mississippi delta/watershed, and is generally the western region of the "deep south."

-if there's a US in your proposed tl, please dont just point at texas and say "Manifest Destiny," especially given the Louisianna territory AND northern mexico otl were especially under populated due to other regions being more inticing. For all we know the dutch will breed like rabbits.


So, how would this effect the balance of power in north america and Europe? Would the Netherlands focus on western africa instead of the cape, or would Angola become a prime objective?

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Funnily enough, that happened in one of my EU IV games, the Dutch settled Florida and some of the Gulf states.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Funnily enough, that happened in one of my EU IV games, the Dutch settled Florida and some of the Gulf states.

The idea actually came from me remembering my own dutch Louisiana expanding to basically be a dutch csa. So... yeah checks out

 

[Strategos' Risk]

I know it's just a game, but I wonder if there's any logistical reason for the Dutch to end up there. The Netherlands are south of England, for starters.

 

[Analytical Engine]

I know it's just a game, but I wonder if there's any logistical reason for the Dutch to end up there. The Netherlands are south of England, for starters.

It's there, and and you can make money from it.

Besides, the Netherlands had colonies in the Caribbean and South America.

 

[AltoRegnant]

I know it's just a game, but I wonder if there's any logistical reason for the Dutch to end up there. The Netherlands are south of England, for starters.

I mean, they did have holdouts in the Caribbean and SA otl. Once they know what they're aiming at (which everyone but the iberians at least had the coast and relevant winds to use) it shouldn't be that hard

 

[Viriato]

How is Dutch Guiana not a major colony? Also they did not need an American colony when they had Java, they one of the world's earliest large producers of coffee, and were still in fourth place by 1830, with Dutch Guiana in sixth position. In Java the Dutch also had large sugar plantations along with the world's leading quinine plantations. Dutch Guiana included what would become British Guiana until 1796. It was one of the world's leading coffee producers in the early XIX century and was a major producer of sugar. Exports in 1795 were worth 10 million guilders and this prosperity lasted until around the mid-19th century.

Before the French ceded Louisiana their average exports between 1743 and 1748 were around 270,000 livres per year, or a mere 225,000 guilders in specie value. Mostly indigo and tobacco. During the 1780s the annual average export for Saint-Domingue was 250 million livres per year (208 million guilders), more than Dutch Guiana but still much more than the Mississippi River Delta. Until the cotton boom which only started after the invention of the cotton gin, the region was not worth very much to its colonial rulers.

 

[AltoRegnant]

How is Dutch Guiana not a major colony? Also they did not need an American colony when they had Java, they one of the world's earliest large producers of coffee, and were still in fourth place by 1830, with Dutch Guiana in sixth position. In Java the Dutch also had large sugar plantations along with the world's leading quinine plantations. Dutch Guiana included what would become British Guiana until 1796. It was one of the world's leading coffee producers in the early XIX century and was a major producer of sugar. Exports in 1795 were worth 10 million guilders and this prosperity lasted until around the mid-19th century.

Before the French ceded Louisiana their average exports between 1743 and 1748 were around 270,000 livres per year, or a mere 225,000 guilders in specie value. Mostly indigo and tobacco. During the 1780s the annual average export for Saint-Domingue was 250 million livres per year (208 million guilders), more than Dutch Guiana but still much more than the Mississippi River Delta. Until the cotton boom which only started after the invention of the cotton gin, the region was not worth very much to its colonial rulers.

i see. TBH, i just sorta.... didn't think of it in that sense, because i sorta forgot about coffee as a major cash crop in this period, since i always think "sugar, rice, cotton" and just never really heard of Dutch Guiana doing a lot. Though on the java matter i will point out that I'm talking about a fair point before that. and the french in louisanna rather famously weren't big on settling, meaning its colony on the delta wasn't really outputting as much as it reasonably could support, no?

 

[Viriato]

i see. TBH, i just sorta.... didn't think of it in that sense, because i sorta forgot about coffee as a major cash crop in this period, since i always think "sugar, rice, cotton" and just never really heard of Dutch Guiana doing a lot. Though on the java matter i will point out that I'm talking about a fair point before that. and the french in louisanna rather famously weren't big on settling, meaning its colony on the delta wasn't really outputting as much as it reasonably could support, no?

Java was a huge plantation colony in the sense that the Dutch made huge sums exporting sugar and coffee. They were only overtaken by Brazil in the 1820s and were still the world's second-largest producer around 1850 when they produced around 30% of the world's total coffee crop.

As for settlement, the French Crown sent more European settlers to Louisiana than Canada, though mortality was much higher. In 1719-1720 some 4,000 settlers arrived, among them were 1,200 Germans. Many died of disease and starvation during their first years, by 1724 the number of Germans left was 330. By 1742 there were only 3,200 whites in French Louisiana and finally 4,000 by 1763 when the colony was handed over to Spain.

 

[pompejus]

Dutch ownership of Java does not realy matter for a potential Dutch Mississippi. Java would fall under the Dutch East Indies Company (VOC) which was seperate from the Dutch West Indies Company (WIC). They were two different organisations focussing on two different continents. So the WIC could settle the Mississippi delta without caring one bit about the VOC.

There are still a couple of problems with this idea. First of all, any north American colony would pale in comparison to the Dutch Carribean colonies, even if they were smaller in size. There is a reason why the Dutch traded New Amsterdam for Suriname, or the French Quebec for another Carribean sugar island (I always forget which one).

Another problem is settlers. Simply put, the Netherlands was in the 17th century the best place to live in Europe (if not the world). Most people would move to the Netherlands instead of away from it. That means that a Dutch Mississppi delta would be sparsely populated. It would probably consists at best at some plantations at the coastal areas and mostly be populated by slaves and their masters. It would be comparable to the Dutch Carribean colonies and less to the English colonies on the east coast. You don't get a Dutch south. You get a Carribean north. Not a pleasant place to live. An interesting concept though tohave such a colony in North America. It would realy shift the balance.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

How is Dutch Guiana not a major colony? Also they did not need an American colony when they had Java, they one of the world's earliest large producers of coffee, and were still in fourth place by 1830, with Dutch Guiana in sixth position. In Java the Dutch also had large sugar plantations along with the world's leading quinine plantations. Dutch Guiana included what would become British Guiana until 1796. It was one of the world's leading coffee producers in the early XIX century and was a major producer of sugar. Exports in 1795 were worth 10 million guilders and this prosperity lasted until around the mid-19th century.

Before the French ceded Louisiana their average exports between 1743 and 1748 were around 270,000 livres per year, or a mere 225,000 guilders in specie value. Mostly indigo and tobacco. During the 1780s the annual average export for Saint-Domingue was 250 million livres per year (208 million guilders), more than Dutch Guiana but still much more than the Mississippi River Delta. Until the cotton boom which only started after the invention of the cotton gin, the region was not worth very much to its colonial rulers.

Dutch ownership of Java does not realy matter for a potential Dutch Mississippi. Java would fall under the Dutch East Indies Company (VOC) which was seperate from the Dutch West Indies Company (WIC). They were two different organisations focussing on two different continents. So the WIC could settle the Mississippi delta without caring one bit about the VOC.

There are still a couple of problems with this idea. First of all, any north American colony would pale in comparison to the Dutch Carribean colonies, even if they were smaller in size. There is a reason why the Dutch traded New Amsterdam for Suriname, or the French Quebec for another Carribean sugar island (I always forget which one).

Another problem is settlers. Simply put, the Netherlands was in the 17th century the best place to live in Europe (if not the world). Most people would move to the Netherlands instead of away from it. That means that a Dutch Mississppi delta would be sparsely populated. It would probably consists at best at some plantations at the coastal areas and mostly be populated by slaves and their masters. It would be comparable to the Dutch Carribean colonies and less to the English colonies on the east coast. You don't get a Dutch south. You get a Carribean north. Not a pleasant place to live. An interesting concept though tohave such a colony in North America. It would realy shift the balance.

Unrelated question about Dutch Guiana. But had the Grote Desseyn worked out would we see Dutch Argentina instead of Dutch Guiana? Or would we have both?

 

[Wesley_Lewt]

For a POD I recommend a different 30 years war. One where the Hapsburgs (Spanish and Austrian) get their teeth kicked in much harder than OTL and the Spanish Empire collapses. The Dutch take Antwerp and more. The Fronde still happens so France can't just grab everything.

Maybe (maybe) something like the TL in my sig though we haven't got to what you want yet (no spoilers so I am not promising this by any means)

 

[Viriato]

Dutch ownership of Java does not realy matter for a potential Dutch Mississippi. Java would fall under the Dutch East Indies Company (VOC) which was seperate from the Dutch West Indies Company (WIC). They were two different organisations focussing on two different continents. So the WIC could settle the Mississippi delta without caring one bit about the VOC.

I should have been more specific, as Dutch colonisation was carried out by for profit companies I imagine that the shareholders of the WIC would have rejected any sort of colonisation around the Mississippi delta unless it came after colonising some more profitable region in North America. If I remember correctly the provinces of Holland and Zealand were the principal shareholders.

 

[AltoRegnant]

I should have been more specific, as Dutch colonisation was carried out by for profit companies I imagine that the shareholders of the WIC would have rejected any sort of colonisation around the Mississippi delta unless it came after colonising some more profitable region in North America. If I remember correctly the provinces of Holland and Zealand were the principal shareholders.

I mean, any major expansion the Caribbean means fighting some nasty opponents even beyond spain, and since guiana was probably even worse for settlers due to the tropical jungle climate, I could see companies going "less potential, but more stable bottom line"

And technically theres nothing stopping from doing both. Especially of they decide not to bother with New Amsterdam

 

[Viriato]

I mean, any major expansion the Caribbean means fighting some nasty opponents even beyond spain, and since guiana was probably even worse for settlers due to the tropical jungle climate, I could see companies going "less potential, but more stable bottom line"

And technically theres nothing stopping from doing both. Especially of they decide not to bother with New Amsterdam

The principal issue was that establishing a new colony was very costly and the WIC was meant to return immediate dividends to it shareholders rather than invest too heavily for longer term reward. This had been the model of the VOC and had been extremely successful, piracy and trade were far more profitable than investing in a colony where returns could take decades to come.

The WIC attempted to copy the VOC model of conquering existing settlements rather than establishing new ones, hence their capture of Northeastern Brazil along with the slave forts of Elmina and Luanda. In Brazil however, the company began to lose money defending the territory from attack. Eventually they were driven away, and accepted an indemnity from the Portuguese Crown rather than mount a costly expedition to recapture the area.

The WIC made more profit trading slaves and smuggling goods in the West Indies. Hence the establishment of Curacao which became a free port for illegal slave trading with the Spanish Main. Despite this successful enterprise, it was not enough to remain solvent and by 1674 the company was bankrupt, and subsequently dissolved. Even with their enterprise in New Netherland, where beaver pelts were exported, the fur trade in itself was not profitable enough for the WIC to stay in business let alone organize the profits of the trade to support the creation and defence of a large settler colony.

 

[dartingfog]

Something that popped into my head when I read this thread: Would the Dutch give Lake Pontchartrain the Zuider Zee treatment? I suppose the population pressures aren't as great as in the Netherlands to motivate reclaiming the land, but it seems plausible.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Something that popped into my head when I read this thread: Would the Dutch give Lake Pontchartrain the Zuider Zee treatment? I suppose the population pressures aren't as great as in the Netherlands to motivate reclaiming the land, but it seems plausible.

Zuider Zee treatment?

 

[H.Flashman(VC)]

Zuider Zee treatment?

I think he means water engineering, like claiming land on the water and turning part of the sea into a lake. That first part is not necessary here. But because waterworks like the Afsluitdijk were mainly done to protect existing threatened land, if their is a settlement at the Missisippi delta such knowledge would certainly be usefull there,.