WI: Charles the Bold gave military support to the House of Lancaster?

[RedKing]

In our timeline, Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy, held Lancastrian sympathies up until the Readeption, when he switched to supporting the Yorks militarily. This was a huge boon for the Yorkists and helped them emerge triumphant against the Lancastrians in the Readeption. But what if Charles’s sympathies for the House of Lancaster not only remained, but he supported them militarily too? Firstly, how does this happen? Maybe Edward IV takes a French bride and/or a pro-French foreign policy? Or maybe, Charles just sees it as more beneficial to him? Maybe Edward of Westminster could get a Burgundian proxy bride? Charles does have a few cousins he could marry (Margaret of Scotland being one of them). Alternatively, Westminster could marry a Burgundian noblewoman. Would Charles supporting the Lancastrians’ cause Louis XI of France to support the Yorkists to prevent a Burgundian friendly King sitting on the English throne? How would this influence the Lancastrians’s moves against the House of York?

Also, in case anyone was wondering, I know Charles chose to marry Margaret of York pre-Readeption, but what I’ve read said he still didn’t fully support the Yorkists and likewise, fully oppose the Lancastrians, until the Readeption.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I always understood it that Charles' rationale was economic. That he found that the Lancastrian policy during the Readeption was pro-French rather than pro-Burgundian. So maybe Marguerite d'Anjou gets out of France faster during the Readeption? Or, perhaps...and I have no idea how likely this is...Charles decides to marry Marie of Burgundy to Edward of Westminster?

 

[RedKing]

I always understood it that Charles' rationale was economic. That he found that the Lancastrian policy during the Readeption was pro-French rather than pro-Burgundian. So maybe Marguerite d'Anjou gets out of France faster during the Readeption?

That does make sense. I could also see Charles being concerned about politics. I feel like if the Lancastrians get French support in reclaiming the throne, they’d have to remain pro-French, or else the French would suddenly support the York’s and push the Scots to cause trouble for the Lancastrian regime. Especially since the Earl of Northumberland may fight in Edward IV’s name which would cause a lot of trouble for the restored regime.

Maybe if the Lancastrians flee to Lorraine and manage to enlist Charles’s support from there, perhaps as part of a Burgundian-Angevin alliance?

Or, perhaps...and I have no idea how likely this is...Charles decides to marry Marie of Burgundy to Edward of Westminster?

I can’t see Edward of Westminster getting any major princess, especially while he is in exile, her alone an heiress. Maybe it could happen if the Lancastrians are within an arm’s stretch of regaining the throne while a stalemate ensues? Alternatively, Westminster could also be the heir to Lorraine.

 

[material_boy]

Would Charles supporting the Lancastrians’ cause Louis XI of France to support the Yorkists to prevent a Burgundian friendly King sitting on the English throne?

Yes, definitely.

Charles decides to marry Marie of Burgundy to Edward of Westminster?

Mary of Burgundy is far more valuable to her father as an unmarried heiress ... unless he has a son. If he has a son that survives infancy then maybe this sort of arrangement might happen. And if Mary's younger brother dies after the marriage ... Edward is suddenly an extremely rich man.

 

[RedKing]

Yes, definitely.

Would Louis XI support Edward IV even if he spurns Bona of Savoy for Elizabeth Woodville like in otl? If so, maybe George could marry Bona in place of Edward?

Mary of Burgundy is far more valuable to her father as an unmarried heiress ... unless he has a son. If he has a son that survives infancy then maybe this sort of arrangement might happen. And if Mary's younger brother dies after the marriage ... Edward is suddenly an extremely rich man.

I can’t see Mary being married to Edward of Westminster while he’s in exile, unless a Lancastrian restoration is highly likely. It would just be too much of a waste. An extra long betrothal seems more likely imo.

The idea of Edward accidentally becoming the Duke for Burgundy is fun though. I could see him giving up England for the Duchy and making an alliance with Edward IV, before the two proceed to the wage war on Frace (maybe Westminster claims the throne?).

 

[SunZi]

In our timeline, Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy, held Lancastrian sympathies up until the Readeption, when he switched to supporting the Yorks militarily. This was a huge boon for the Yorkists and helped them emerge triumphant against the Lancastrians in the Readeption. But what if Charles’s sympathies for the House of Lancaster not only remained, but he supported them militarily too? Firstly, how does this happen? Maybe Edward IV takes a French bride and/or a pro-French foreign policy? Or maybe, Charles just sees it as more beneficial to him? Maybe Edward of Westminster could get a Burgundian proxy bride? Charles does have a few cousins he could marry (Margaret of Scotland being one of them). Alternatively, Westminster could marry a Burgundian noblewoman. Would Charles supporting the Lancastrians’ cause Louis XI of France to support the Yorkists to prevent a Burgundian friendly King sitting on the English throne? How would this influence the Lancastrians’s moves against the House of York?

Also, in case anyone was wondering, I know Charles chose to marry Margaret of York pre-Readeption, but what I’ve read said he still didn’t fully support the Yorkists and likewise, fully oppose the Lancastrians, until the Readeption.

Readeption may bring Lancastrians and Burgundians closer - I had started writing a TL about a Warwick victory at Barnet, and had assumed the earl would be the pro-French side and Queen Margaret more neutral (tend towards pro-Burgundy). The latter would seek to obtain peace with Charles, after the declaration of war by Warwick during the Readeption, and through her relations with her father, René of Anjou (linked to Lorraine, close to Burgundy), would serve as a counter-weight against Louis XI - the latter, versatile, would go to see a Prince of York while seeking to favor Warwick over Westminster. The mutual hatred between Warwick and the Bold was known, because both looked a lot alike and were therefore condemned to clash. In sum, if Edward IV adopts a pro-French/pro-Warwick policy Charles would be disillusioned.

 

[material_boy]

Would Louis XI support Edward IV even if he spurns Bona of Savoy for Elizabeth Woodville like in otl? If so, maybe George could marry Bona in place of Edward?

Louis was highly transactional. Whatever insult Edward had dealt Louis in the past would be forgiven if it gave Louis a leg up over Charles.

I can’t see Mary being married to Edward of Westminster while he’s in exile, unless a Lancastrian restoration is highly likely. It would just be too much of a waste. An extra long betrothal seems more likely imo.

The idea of Edward accidentally becoming the Duke for Burgundy is fun though. I could see him giving up England for the Duchy and making an alliance with Edward IV, before the two proceed to the wage war on Frace (maybe Westminster claims the throne?).

I agree it remains highly unlikely that Edward would wed Mary. I just meant that "highly unlikely" is better than "would never happen," which is what I think the chances are of exiled Edward wedding Mary while she is heiress.

Edward, accidental duke of Burgundy, is a lot of fun to think about. Imagine him retaking the throne and the Burgundian Conquest of 1476 being taught in schools

 

[isabella]

Readeption may bring Lancastrians and Burgundians closer - I had started writing a TL about a Warwick victory at Barnet, and had assumed the earl would be the pro-French side and Queen Margaret more neutral (tend towards pro-Burgundy). The latter would seek to obtain peace with Charles, after the declaration of war by Warwick during the Readeption, and through her relations with her father, René of Anjou (linked to Lorraine, close to Burgundy), would serve as a counter-weight against Louis XI - the latter, versatile, would go to see a Prince of York while seeking to favor Warwick over Westminster. The mutual hatred between Warwick and the Bold was known, because both looked a lot alike and were therefore condemned to clash. In sum, if Edward IV adopts a pro-French/pro-Warwick policy Charles would be disillusioned.

Rene of Anjou (and also his grandson Rene II of Vaudemont) was one of the great enemies of Charles of Burgundy. Henry VI’s marriage to Margaret of Anjou and her extremely pro-French policies were the main reason for the switch of Charles the Bold’s alliance from Lancastrian to Yorkist…

 

[RedKing]

Readeption may bring Lancastrians and Burgundians closer - I had started writing a TL about a Warwick victory at Barnet, and had assumed the earl would be the pro-French side and Queen Margaret more neutral (tend towards pro-Burgundy). The latter would seek to obtain peace with Charles, after the declaration of war by Warwick during the Readeption, and through her relations with her father, René of Anjou (linked to Lorraine, close to Burgundy), would serve as a counter-weight against Louis XI - the latter, versatile, would go to see a Prince of York while seeking to favor Warwick over Westminster. The mutual hatred between Warwick and the Bold was known, because both looked a lot alike and were therefore condemned to clash. In sum, if Edward IV adopts a pro-French/pro-Warwick policy Charles would be disillusioned.

I am not sure if the Lancasters could afford to be pro-Burgundian post Readeption, they are indebted to the French and couldn’t afford to lose them to the Yorks, not while their rule is so unstable. Edward marrying Elizabeth Woodville but still takes Warwick’s advice on foreign policy matters seems like a much better way to get a Pro-Lancaster Burgduny.

Louis was highly transactional. Whatever insult Edward had dealt Louis in the past would be forgiven if it gave Louis a leg up over Charles.

True, maybe a double alliance occurs, with Bona marrying George and Anne marrying a son of Edward?

I agree it remains highly unlikely that Edward would wed Mary. I just meant that "highly unlikely" is better than "would never happen," which is what I think the chances are of exiled Edward wedding Mary while she is heiress.

Fair, bedsides stranger things have happened then a possible marriage between an exiled Edward and Mary, heiress to Burgundy. Could Margaret of Scotland (a cousin of Charles) work as a proxy bride for Edward too?

Edward, accidental duke of Burgundy, is a lot of fun to think about. Imagine him retaking the throne and the Burgundian Conquest of 1476 being taught in schools

That would be fun, it mightn’t be that hard too, if he can win over the English merchants and peasants get tired of Edward IV like in otl. Maybe Edward IV can get an arrow to the eye?

Rene of Anjou (and also his grandson Rene II of Vaudemont) was one of the great enemies of Charles of Burgundy. Henry VI’s marriage to Margaret of Anjou and her extremely pro-French policies were the main reason for the switch of Charles the Bold’s alliance from Lancastrian to Yorkist…

Could the rivalry between René and Charles be resolved by betrothing Mary of Burgundy to Nicholas of Anjou?

 

[SunZi]

Rene of Anjou (and also his grandson Rene II of Vaudemont) was one of the great enemies of Charles of Burgundy. Henry VI’s marriage to Margaret of Anjou and her extremely pro-French policies were the main reason for the switch of Charles the Bold’s alliance from Lancastrian to Yorkist…

The conflicting relations between René and Louis XI over the succession of his French possessions (Anjou, Provence and other de jure titles to Naples and Jerusalem), may push Edward of Lancaster into an anti-French alliance (although here it will be tied with the successors of Charles the Bold) to claim them.

 

[SunZi]

I am not sure if the Lancasters could afford to be pro-Burgundian post Readeption, they are indebted to the French and couldn’t afford to lose them to the Yorks, not while their rule is so unstable. Edward marrying Elizabeth Woodville but still takes Warwick’s advice on foreign policy matters seems like a much better way to get a Pro-Lancaster Burgduny.

Well, the war declared against Burgundy by Warwick will have repercussions on Anglo-Flemish trade. For Charles, it's a risk to his thriving income from the "Belgian" cities and for the Lancastrians, it's a risky blow in a usually tight economy which would then be threatened with a major recession (unless they privileges trade with the Hansa or Italian traders, but it would be quite complicated).

Otherwise, defeat Edward IV in his quest for the throne and an Anglo-Burgundian rapprochement will inevitably occur with the Lancasters in mind, symbolized by the marriage of Mary of Burgundy with Edward of Westminster. Louis XI, will support him, Georges Plantagenet (a marriage with a French noblewoman of the house of Albret or Foix).

 

[RedKing]

Well, the war declared against Burgundy by Warwick will have repercussions on Anglo-Flemish trade. For Charles, it's a risk to his thriving income from the "Belgian" cities and for the Lancastrians, it's a risky blow in a usually tight economy which would then be threatened with a major recession (unless they privileges trade with the Hansa or Italian traders, but it would be quite complicated).

Otherwise, defeat Edward IV in his quest for the throne and an Anglo-Burgundian rapprochement will inevitably occur with the Lancasters in mind, symbolized by the marriage of Mary of Burgundy with Edward of Westminster. Louis XI, will support him, Georges Plantagenet (a marriage with a French noblewoman of the house of Albret or Foix).

That does sound interesting. Do you think in sleek world with a pro-York Louis Xi, that George would get Bona of Savoy in lieu of Edward IV, if the latter still marries Elizabeth Woodville?

 

[SunZi]

That does sound interesting. Do you think in sleek world with a pro-York Louis Xi, that George would get Bona of Savoy in lieu of Edward IV, if the latter still marries Elizabeth Woodville?

Yes. Sounds plausible to me.