What if the Viceroyalty of New Viscaya was created?

In OTL the Spanish had considered creating a new viceroyalty as early as 1776 out of the northernmost parts of OTL New Spain called New Viscaya. Obviously New Viscaya was never established but what if it was? Would it become independent?
 
I could see them remaining royalist for awhile longer, thinking it might be better to be governed from a far away Madrid than an up close Mexico City. And also for protection from the dreaded Yankee.
 
I could see them remaining royalist for awhile longer, thinking it might be better to be governed from a far away Madrid than an up close Mexico City. And also for protection from the dreaded Yankee.
Do you think New Viscaya would become the "Canada" Spain and be a Spanish dominion with a lot of autonomy? Also, what happens to the USA now that its restricted to land east of the Mississippi?
 
I could see them remaining royalist for awhile longer, thinking it might be better to be governed from a far away Madrid than an up close Mexico City.
In relation to such possibility, could they adapt the name "Chichimeca"/"Chimeca" once the viceroyalty became an independent domain of the Spanish Crown?
 
It would be pretty helpful for control over the region, since many of its residents strongly disliked rule from Mexico City. But it would still be very underpopulated which is a problem for defense against both American Indians as well as against the United States.

Do you think New Viscaya would become the "Canada" Spain and be a Spanish dominion with a lot of autonomy? Also, what happens to the USA now that its restricted to land east of the Mississippi?
How would New Viscaya automatically restrict the US to east of the Mississippi?

In relation to such possibility, could they adapt the name "Chichimeca"/"Chimeca" once the viceroyalty became an independent domain of the Spanish Crown?
Problem with that name is that "Chichimecs" just means barbarians. Aztlan seems far better since it reflects on the land the Aztecs allegedly came from.
 
How would New Viscaya automatically restrict the US to east of the Mississippi?
You mean why doesn't the USA invade? Probably just doesn't want to go to war with Spain. Maybe the USA goes after Canada instead considering that America and Spain were allies while the US had fought the British twice by this point.
 
The US went west with the Louisiana Purchase. So the starting point is keeping LA in Spanish hands. OTL, they returned it to France for a swap that was never completed. It's hard to say how willing the swap was. Charles IV was a simpleton easily duped, and Godoy wasn't much better, while the true boss of the country, Maria Louisa, didn't have much of a head for ruling, and mostly was happy as long as she was getting laid, so it's easy to seem them being quite willing to do the swap. On the other hand, Spain was under the thumb of Napoleon, so they may not have had any choice. I'm thinking the return of LA to France and then a sale to the US goes on pretty much as OTL.

One would have to assume that if Spain went a head with the vice royalty, they would also increase efforts to settle it and make it into something. resumption of mining in new Mexico would be a start. estabilish a port on the east side for the vice royalty would have to be either Tampico, or a port in Tejas, meaning more build up there.
 
I agree that it would be at least a little more developed. However, as OTL, I think the likely outcome is ending up as part of the United States. Lots of room for butterflies though.
 
America had a lot of people who didn't want New Orleans in the hands of anyone else. And wasn't Luisiana part of Cuba and not anything in Mexico? Why would Spain reassign it to part of Nueva Vizcaya when Luisiana's trade is with the Caribbean?
 
I, too, doubt the amount of development that would happen. If Californian/Colorado gold is found earlier, maybe more effort is made, but overall, unless riches are flowing in, you likely just see neglect and then possibly a sale, just to get rid of it, ala Florida.
 
I, too, doubt the amount of development that would happen. If Californian/Colorado gold is found earlier, maybe more effort is made, but overall, unless riches are flowing in, you likely just see neglect and then possibly a sale, just to get rid of it, ala Florida.
Colorado gold would be huge. It wasn't too far north of New Mexico and would be rumoured about if there's more of a Spanish fur trade in the area. The problem is the American Indians who had already brought New Mexico to its knees, and pushing further north means expanding into prime territory for the Plains Indians. It isn't impossible, it would just require a major successful campaign to pacify the natives in what's nowadays Colorado and a resulting treaty which can give some manner of peace. Since this would be happening around the time of the Napoleonic Wars, can Spain afford this expense?

Still, Colorado gold will be huge for the colony, and probably serve to make Nuevo Mexico the center of Nueva Vizcaya since it's between the riches of *Colorado and Chihuahua.
 
A quick search for the word New Viscaya shows that this was an early name for the states that in 1824 became Coahuila and Chihuahua in Mexico. But for the sake of the discussion, I've found a map online that I've cropped to reflect the geography you're most likely referring to. If anyone wants to see the pre-cropped map, it's available here:https://tshaonline.org/sites/default/files/images/handbook/VV/viceroyalty_of_the_new_spain_1800.jpg

When we're talking about this new Viceroyalty just how much are we talking about? It would seem to me that it would include Spanish Louisiana, Texas, New Mexico and New California.
Spanish Louisiana appears to have had a population of less than 10,000 (excluding Amerindians) (according to Louisiana: Crossroads of the Atlantic World), Texas had less than 4,000 Spanish subjects (again, excluding the Amerindians), New Mexico had significantly less than 10,000 too. California had less than 1,000 (again excluding Amerindians). In total, we're talking about less than 15,000 Spanish speaking (that includes the French creoles in Louisiana)

upload_2017-11-15_11-44-25.png

There are probably two towns that would work for this new viceroyalty's capital. Either New Orleans or Santa Fe. Neither has more than a couple of thousand people in 1776. I would think that New Orleans has the best prospects in 1776, given the viceroyalty's dearth of population.

The question becomes, what happens next? Setting this area up as a viceroyalty wouldn't, I think, start making things interesting until the Napoleonic wars. So, 20-25 years of more or less same trajectory as our TL. But keep in mind, there's nothing that would keep Spain from trading it all to Napoleon like what happened with Spanish Louisiana in the Third Treaty of San Ildefonso in 1800 and Napoleon turning around and selling the whole thing to the US in 1803. So, you could devise a TL in which the creation of the viceroyalty could expedite the cession of the area to the US.

Alternately, you could devise a TL in which the viceroyalty revolts during Napoleon's invasion of Spain. They make it stick because neither Spain nor France (if Spain traded the region to France) has the resources to compel them back into the colonial fold. At that point, a writer could have a lot of fun playing with the aftereffects of such a rebellion. The most likely outcome is that the nascent US comes into conflict with the sparsely settled newly independent country over access rights to the Mississippi River. Keep in mind that during the 1780s and 90s Spain and the US squabbled over access rights. That's not going to disappear just because New Viscaya has replaced Spain.

The most likely outcome would be US encroachment, like in OTL, although other outcomes are certainly possible. Anyway, that's my .02.
 
You mean why doesn't the USA invade? Probably just doesn't want to go to war with Spain. Maybe the USA goes after Canada instead considering that America and Spain were allies while the US had fought the British twice by this point.
But people knew Spain was an easier opponent than Britain. And its land is more valuable than Canada.
 
A quick search for the word New Viscaya shows that this was an early name for the states that in 1824 became Coahuila and Chihuahua in Mexico. But for the sake of the discussion, I've found a map online that I've cropped to reflect the geography you're most likely referring to. If anyone wants to see the pre-cropped map, it's available here:https://tshaonline.org/sites/default/files/images/handbook/VV/viceroyalty_of_the_new_spain_1800.jpg

When we're talking about this new Viceroyalty just how much are we talking about? It would seem to me that it would include Spanish Louisiana, Texas, New Mexico and New California.
Spanish Louisiana appears to have had a population of less than 10,000 (excluding Amerindians) (according to Louisiana: Crossroads of the Atlantic World), Texas had less than 4,000 Spanish subjects (again, excluding the Amerindians), New Mexico had significantly less than 10,000 too. California had less than 1,000 (again excluding Amerindians). In total, we're talking about less than 15,000 Spanish speaking (that includes the French creoles in Louisiana)

View attachment 355029
There are probably two towns that would work for this new viceroyalty's capital. Either New Orleans or Santa Fe. Neither has more than a couple of thousand people in 1776. I would think that New Orleans has the best prospects in 1776, given the viceroyalty's dearth of population.
But was Luisiana to be included in New Viscaya? As I said, OTL it was part of Cuba.

In any case, Parral, Chihuahua, Durango, or Saltillo would be better capitals for the viceroyalty than New Orleans (isolated and distant) or Santa Fe (too close to the frontier).
 
A quick search for the word New Viscaya shows that this was an early name for the states that in 1824 became Coahuila and Chihuahua in Mexico. But for the sake of the discussion, I've found a map online that I've cropped to reflect the geography you're most likely referring to. If anyone wants to see the pre-cropped map, it's available here:https://tshaonline.org/sites/default/files/images/handbook/VV/viceroyalty_of_the_new_spain_1800.jpg

When we're talking about this new Viceroyalty just how much are we talking about? It would seem to me that it would include Spanish Louisiana, Texas, New Mexico and New California.
Spanish Louisiana appears to have had a population of less than 10,000 (excluding Amerindians) (according to Louisiana: Crossroads of the Atlantic World), Texas had less than 4,000 Spanish subjects (again, excluding the Amerindians), New Mexico had significantly less than 10,000 too. California had less than 1,000 (again excluding Amerindians). In total, we're talking about less than 15,000 Spanish speaking (that includes the French creoles in Louisiana)

View attachment 355029
There are probably two towns that would work for this new viceroyalty's capital. Either New Orleans or Santa Fe. Neither has more than a couple of thousand people in 1776. I would think that New Orleans has the best prospects in 1776, given the viceroyalty's dearth of population.

The question becomes, what happens next? Setting this area up as a viceroyalty wouldn't, I think, start making things interesting until the Napoleonic wars. So, 20-25 years of more or less same trajectory as our TL. But keep in mind, there's nothing that would keep Spain from trading it all to Napoleon like what happened with Spanish Louisiana in the Third Treaty of San Ildefonso in 1800 and Napoleon turning around and selling the whole thing to the US in 1803. So, you could devise a TL in which the creation of the viceroyalty could expedite the cession of the area to the US.

Alternately, you could devise a TL in which the viceroyalty revolts during Napoleon's invasion of Spain. They make it stick because neither Spain nor France (if Spain traded the region to France) has the resources to compel them back into the colonial fold. At that point, a writer could have a lot of fun playing with the aftereffects of such a rebellion. The most likely outcome is that the nascent US comes into conflict with the sparsely settled newly independent country over access rights to the Mississippi River. Keep in mind that during the 1780s and 90s Spain and the US squabbled over access rights. That's not going to disappear just because New Viscaya has replaced Spain.

The most likely outcome would be US encroachment, like in OTL, although other outcomes are certainly possible. Anyway, that's my .02.
I’d assume the boundaries would be those of the Provincias Internas

 
If you don't remove Napoleon this ATL wouldn't have much of an impact I fear and Mexico would end up annexing it
 
I’d assume the boundaries would be those of the Provincias Internas
That actually makes a lot of sense. I didn't stumble across that when I was looking into this at first. But the problem that I see, Would it have its own cultural identity when the revolts against Spain happen around 1810, or so? If it did, it would be a very poor country to Mexico's north and to the US's south. Proverbially, between a rock and a hard place. Less than a million souls with serious internal security issues with hostile tribes like the Apache and the Comanche, both of whom made life difficult for Spain in the 18th century and Mexico in the 19th.

You'd have a nation with worse security and more of a need for the American settlers who Mexico invited in during OTL. I'm not saying it's pre-ordained or the like, just that given all the possibilities, it would be highly likely.

Alternately, it could just as easily get absorbed by the newly independent Mexico.
 
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