What if the Royal Navy totally destroyed the German fleet at Jutland?

If Germany should realise that the Atlantic traffic is important, the more 'easy' one could be the transfer of men and materiel from UK to France - the Channel

Using limited resources (an MTB vs. battleship in cost) and focus on mining and MTB attacks evrey day could have an impact.

Not really. They'd not have anything remotely equivalent to say the S-Boat's of WW2 due to the technical limitations (they'd have to be either coal powered, which means big bulky engines, or use the limited amount of petrol available taking it away from aircraft.) Also they'd be very short ranged so would be of limited use.

The UK's not going to force its way past Denmark, the advantage of the Danes joining the Germans in WW1 is limited, their army was tiny, their available manpower limited and their industrial base also of little use, but the UK's not going to do that because of the perception it would have on the world stage. But what they can do is threaten to go for places like Heogland, and capture that off the Germans. The RN isn't going to go into the Baltic, its too close to German bases and many many u-boats though.
 
Using limited resources (an MTB vs. battleship in cost) and focus on mining and MTB attacks evrey day could have an impact.
No if the GF doesn't need them any more (as it's not needed in force any more after the destruction of HSF) the RN has too many now free DDs for any threat in the channel that can be realistically produced by Germany.

The Baltic is simply too hard, but the sea war basically becomes U-boats v far more now free escorts for the rest of the war to GBs signifcant advantage over OT.
 
It would be interesting to see how close the RN could get its mines. Right up to coastal artillery range I guess. Heligoland Bight type actions with minimal chance of a German battle cruiser to pull the coals out of the fire.

While the RN probably can't get big ships into the Baltic I wonder if alternatives exist. Cutting the Swedish ore trade looks reachable. Can you get subs into the Baltic? Can a seaplane or carrier aircraft carry a mine a useful distance? Dropping an egg weekly could be in interesting spur for carrier development.
 
It would be interesting to see how close the RN could get its mines. Right up to coastal artillery range I guess. Heligoland Bight type actions with minimal chance of a German battle cruiser to pull the coals out of the fire.

While the RN probably can't get big ships into the Baltic I wonder if alternatives exist. Cutting the Swedish ore trade looks reachable. Can you get subs into the Baltic? Can a seaplane or carrier aircraft carry a mine a useful distance? Dropping an egg weekly could be in interesting spur for carrier development.

Subs could and did but it was very risky. Aircraft doing air dropped mines? Not until 1918 and even then mines are heavy bastards and you'd have to use heavy bombers to do that if they even have the range. And cutting the Swedish ore? Do you mean going after German transports, or any ship you see?
 
It would be interesting to see how close the RN could get its mines. Right up to coastal artillery range I guess. Heligoland Bight type actions with minimal chance of a German battle cruiser to pull the coals out of the fire.

While the RN probably can't get big ships into the Baltic I wonder if alternatives exist. Cutting the Swedish ore trade looks reachable. Can you get subs into the Baltic? Can a seaplane or carrier aircraft carry a mine a useful distance? Dropping an egg weekly could be in interesting spur for carrier development.
They had several there IOTL that were then sent to operate out of Russian ports. The trouble was the Russians didn't know they were coming and didn't have the facilities to keep up with their maintenance anyway. But before then they significantly disrupted German Baltic trade and forced the Germans to change their force distribution there. If access through the North Sea is easier, it is possible that more subs could be deployed and possibly better supported to more seriously disrupt the Baltic trade. Kind of a reverse USW.
 
I knew they were there, but I imagined the much reduced German navy would be more interested in stopping them. Obviously with nothing better to do the RN would be more interested in projects like this to annoy the Germans.

Subs could and did but it was very risky. Aircraft doing air dropped mines? Not until 1918 and even then mines are heavy bastards and you'd have to use heavy bombers to do that if they even have the range. And cutting the Swedish ore? Do you mean going after German transports, or any ship you see?
Agreed. Big and heavy. But now we have a driver to explore better naval aircraft.

The way I see it you have a limited window to get subs into the Baltic. A quick Google only shows me 1940s ore routes, but the two options are eastern, which freezes over from November to May, and Western which runs down the coast from Narvik. So you need to get some explosives in a gap between the German ports and Narvik that won't annoy Denmark or Norway too much. That is why I figure a carrier option could work. With the German navy unable to challenge, you could park your carrier nearish, then send in a flight of aircraft with some kind of custom lightweight mine to places the minelayers can't safely get.

The RN is looking for things to do. This is basically an experiment/technology demonstrator. Much like the other barrages you might have it working by 1918 if you are lucky. But the benefit is in the lessons for later.
 
An interesting fact about Jutland is that it if the British had better communications and intelligence and better decision making under Jellicoes part, they really could have delt truly severe damage to the German fleet. So what if the British were able to catch the Germans before they reached the horn? Could this prevent the German U boat campaign, thus leading to less damaged British supplies? Could this make Germany surrender earlier? Could Britain even try to invade Wilhelmshaven to put more pressure on Germany proper?

The only problem there is getting crews for them, and materials. Whilst the HSF literally cannot be wiped out, lets assume it gets badly roughed up with the following losses

4 x Koening Class Dreadnoughts
1 x Kaiser Class Dreadnought
1 x Ostrifrieland Class Dreadnoughts
1 x Nassau Class Dreadnought
3 x Deutschland Class Pre-Dreadnoughts

And of the 1st Scouting Group, the only survivor is Derfflinger, the rest (Moltke, Lutzow, Von Der Tan, Seydlitz) are all sunk as well as heavy losses among cruisers and assorted losses amongst German DD's and other ships being shot up or damaged.

To replace these, the Germans are going to have the resources available to build 2 Bayerns and 1 x Lutzow, if they put more resources into other ships, then it comes at the cost of artillery, machine guns, rifles and bullets. Fleet morale would be badly shaken and in a strategic sense, the High Seas Fleet has just had its eyes plucked out with the loss of 1st Scouting Group and various Cruisers being sunk. They've lost their scouting ability, and have no real way of replacing the lost ships in any appreciable number compared to what the UK's shipyards are going to be pumping out.

The High Seas Fleet simply won't be able to challenge the RN again, the RN could lay up some of its older Dreadnoughts or Battlecruisers, freeing up the crews for escorts, its a big morale boost for the Allies and the UK will throw Knighthoods and more at Jellico and god forbid, Beatty. It will be a morale hit for the Germans, any hope they have right away of breaking or loosening the blockade is gone. Fisher might get sexually aroused at the thought of his Baltic Plan getting dusted off, but as folks pointed out, the only way to do that is to go through Danish territorial waters and the Danes won't do that because they'll get invaded by the Germans, or join the Central Powers (Not that it helps much mind).

Thank you for this breakdown of what the Germans would might reasonably be left with. Complete agreement on the fleet morale being very low, I think that would probably preclude any aggressive actions for the rest of the war. However, I can't resist predicting a completely unrealistic progression of events:

June 1: Remains of HSF struggle into its bases.
June 2 - June 30: Newspapers try to describe the whole affair in terms of a Wagnerian sacrifice; naval command heads roll, the Kaiser is distraught;
July: Dreadnoughts are repaired, surviving pre-dreadnaught crews are transferred to fill out casualties;
August 29: Hindenburg is appointed Chief of General Staff, with Ludendorff in tow;
August 30: Ludendorff has a near panic attack over the possibility that the British will get into the Baltic, convinced the Kaiser than the only way to save Germany is to occupy Denmark;
September (first half): Denmark is occupied, its agricultural resources are exploited, the belts are mined and u-boats and coastal artillery deployed there;
September (second half): realizing that the HSF will never be able to challenge the RN, but eager to restore some reputation, the surviving heavy units are thrown against the Russian Baltic Fleet. Russian Baltic fleet fights and dies courageously, several dreadnoughts are lost to coastal artillery and mines, but the HSF breaches the Russian central mine belt, smashes Kronstadt and puts Petrograd under its guns. Alexandra and Rasputin convince Nicholas to sue for peace. The HSF is too battered to be of any use by now.
October: Separate peace with Russia - Germany gets Poland and Russia promises to provide the Ukrainian harvest as reparations. Since revolution is (for a time anyway) averted and the Russian state remains in control, there is no need for Germany and Austria-Hungary to use occupation troops to enforce the harvest collections, as in OTL. Without Russia to help it, Romania surrenders as in OTL. Between Russian and Romanian grain and Danish pork, the turnip winter is averted.

1917:
February 1: Germany does not re-start submarine warfare. No idiotic telegrams are sent to anyone. Wilson is not able to drag America into the war.
May 1: faced with bankruptcy and an impeding Central Powers offensive reinforced by troops transferred from the east, the Entente sues for peace.

Kaiserreich triumphant, and all because the British won at Jutland.
 
Yes because invading a neutral and basically defenceless country again sure as hell won't help shape american perception after the Germans invade Denmark, or cause a reaction close to panic from Sweden and Norway. Meanwhile the badly depleted German fleet gets the drop on the Russian fleet which now has more modern ships than the Germans do when it comes to dreadnoughts (and the finest 12-inch guns ever put on a ship) and can ignore the Russian torpedo boats, destroyers, and submarines whilst bombarding key cities, which of course have no defences.
 
Yes because invading a neutral and basically defenceless country again sure as hell won't help shape american perception after the Germans invade Denmark, or cause a reaction close to panic from Sweden and Norway. Meanwhile the badly depleted German fleet gets the drop on the Russian fleet which now has more modern ships than the Germans do when it comes to dreadnoughts (and the finest 12-inch guns ever put on a ship) and can ignore the Russian torpedo boats, destroyers, and submarines whilst bombarding key cities, which of course have no defences.
Drat, I forgot about the American reaction to Denmark. I suppose it would be Poor Little Belgium X2. As far as the Russian fleet capital ships, would Sevastopol and Gangut be the only dreadnoughts? Great guns for sure, but the Germans should still have them outnumbered. Then there are the Andrei Pervozvanny and Imperator Pavel I, Tsesarevich and Slava. Slava did quite well against overwhelming odds in 1917. I still think 2 dreadnoughts and 4 pre-dreadnaughts wouldn't be a match for even the very reduced HSF, but with mines, submarines and destroyers, and coastal artillery it would suffice. It's not like the Russians are going to lose their minds and throw their ships against overwhelming force. I was really just carried away by a flight of fancy.
 
Thank you for this breakdown of what the Germans would might reasonably be left with. Complete agreement on the fleet morale being very low, I think that would probably preclude any aggressive actions for the rest of the war. However, I can't resist predicting a completely unrealistic progression of events:

June 1: Remains of HSF struggle into its bases.
June 2 - June 30: Newspapers try to describe the whole affair in terms of a Wagnerian sacrifice; naval command heads roll, the Kaiser is distraught;
July: Dreadnoughts are repaired, surviving pre-dreadnaught crews are transferred to fill out casualties;
August 29: Hindenburg is appointed Chief of General Staff, with Ludendorff in tow;
August 30: Ludendorff has a near panic attack over the possibility that the British will get into the Baltic, convinced the Kaiser than the only way to save Germany is to occupy Denmark;
September (first half): Denmark is occupied, its agricultural resources are exploited, the belts are mined and u-boats and coastal artillery deployed there;
September (second half): realizing that the HSF will never be able to challenge the RN, but eager to restore some reputation, the surviving heavy units are thrown against the Russian Baltic Fleet. Russian Baltic fleet fights and dies courageously, several dreadnoughts are lost to coastal artillery and mines, but the HSF breaches the Russian central mine belt, smashes Kronstadt and puts Petrograd under its guns. Alexandra and Rasputin convince Nicholas to sue for peace. The HSF is too battered to be of any use by now.
October: Separate peace with Russia - Germany gets Poland and Russia promises to provide the Ukrainian harvest as reparations. Since revolution is (for a time anyway) averted and the Russian state remains in control, there is no need for Germany and Austria-Hungary to use occupation troops to enforce the harvest collections, as in OTL. Without Russia to help it, Romania surrenders as in OTL. Between Russian and Romanian grain and Danish pork, the turnip winter is averted.

1917:
February 1: Germany does not re-start submarine warfare. No idiotic telegrams are sent to anyone. Wilson is not able to drag America into the war.
May 1: faced with bankruptcy and an impeding Central Powers offensive reinforced by troops transferred from the east, the Entente sues for peace.

Kaiserreich triumphant, and all because the British won at Jutland.
Wouldn't the Russians run away to port and mine the gulf of Finland if they realize the whole German HSF is out to get them?
 
Russian Baltic fleet had four dreadnoughts in service by 1916 along with 2 good pre dreadnoughts (imperator Pavel class) and two second line ships (slava and Tessarevitich) . It also had a healthy amount of armoured cruisers and light ships. At least with Essen its leadership wasnt bad either. In OTL they put up a good show in 1917 during the Moon Sound operation and in this timeline I really don't see the HSF being used in a hyper aggressive way against the Baltic fleet. Particularly one that will be able to operate behind extensive mine and coastal artillery bastions. A good way to get serious losses for little gain as you then have the next barrier to fight past (sort of a naval version of trench warfare. Kronstadt and the approaches to Petersburg were well fortified so it will require a total Russian collapse to bring petersburg under the guns of the HSF.

In a post bad Jutland environment they will be kept as a fleet in being to keep the Grand fleet honest and defend German coastline and baltic access. They will be sufficient materially for that task. Morale wise they will be a hot bed for communist insurgency, workers councils etc. Expect more mutinies earlier (they were already in evidence in 1917 on some of the bigger ships). These will swiftly reduce the operational ability of the fleet as it did OTL and force a focus on light forces and submarines
 
Wouldn't the Russians run away to port and mine the gulf of Finland if they realize the whole German HSF is out to get them?
This was the actual Russian plan, with the mines protected by coastal artillery and the battlefleet like a movable fort. Then by 1913-14 they found that the coastal forts could cover the whole width of the gulf and the Battlefleet could be deployed elsewhere.
 
This was the actual Russian plan, with the mines protected by coastal artillery and the battlefleet like a movable fort. Then by 1913-14 they found that the coastal forts could cover the whole width of the gulf and the Battlefleet could be deployed elsewhere.

And by this time they'd have 4 decent Dreadnoughts, 2 modern Pre-Dreadnoughts, 2 older ones and a slew of cruisers, including the best armoured cruiser in the world at the time and a decent number of torpedo boats, destroyers, and submarines. Any attempt to force the gulf would be bloody if the Russians came out and fought.
 
Could Britain provoke a German invasion of Denmark? It seems ideal if Germany strikes first and Britain swoops in a reinforces Copenhagen and the other islands. Clearing a way to Petrograd while tarnishing international opinion about Germany.
 
If Germany invades Denmark then Britain is going to land troops to protect Norway from German aggression, whether the Norwegian government agrees or not.
 
Could Britain provoke a German invasion of Denmark?

Easily, they almost did so unintentionally IOTL. As the war went on the Germans drew up contingency plans for occupying Denmark but the British never got very adventurous in the Kattegat or Skagerrak. I *think* the situation was something like the German navy wanted to occupy Denmark but the army thought it was a waste of resources and the mere threat of invasion caused the Danes to accommodate the Germans to a significant degree.
 
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