What if Lord Halifax became Prime minister and made peace with Germany

Garrison

Donor
Well the governments of Belgium, Holland etc wouldn’t really have a choice, like how the polish government in exile didn’t have a choice after ww2. Hitler knew in order for Britain to expect any peace he would have to withdraw from the occupied countries in Western Europe. Hitler would do this because he really didn’t want a two front war when attacking the Soviets.
Hitler knew no such thing, and he was content to fight a two front war within a few months. Hitler wanted and needed Europe under his control to launch his attack on the USSR the idea he would give up so much territory and resources is just completely implausible.
 
Well the governments of Belgium, Holland etc wouldn’t really have a choice, like how the polish government in exile didn’t have a choice after ww2. Hitler knew in order for Britain to expect any peace he would have to withdraw from the occupied countries in Western Europe. Hitler would do this because he really didn’t want a two front war when attacking the Soviets.
The Polish government in exile didn't have a choice because of Russian boots in Poland. To prevent Dutch, Belgium and Norwegian governments in exile returning, someone must prevent them to return. It's important to remember that the King of Norway and the Queen of the Netherlands were in exile and were popular.
You don't install a puppetregime very easily in a country with a long democratic history. You need it to force upon them.
Petain was very popular in France with or without German support.

If Britain signs an armistice free France wouldn’t exist.
They'd return to their country and wouldn't agree with Petain.
Even is Petain was popular after the peace(which I doubt, but I don't suspect there are any polls available after the armistice), it doesn't mean he stays it that long when normal politics are resumed.
French army would be too weak to re-enter the war and seeing the rapid German advance during the start of the invasion would think it a lost cause if they did anyway. Britain could gain territory by attacking the USSR like Baku as it could attack through Iran. It just depends.
If they don't have an army, they're not much of support for Germany, are they?
But I didn't mean them re-entering the war, but meant them renogationing the peaceterms.

I don't think Britain would really have a lot to gain by supporting Germany, they'd have more to gain by supporting the USSR.

Your premise ignores the political mood in Britain and the fact that Hitler has no intention of withdrawing from Western Europe,
Not just the political mood in Britain, but also in the other western countries.
 
It was part of the backstory for Slade's The Big One. Complete with the renaming of the city of Halifax in Canada....

I stand corrected. It's a risible premise that cannot be taken seriously by anyone who has the first idea about the subject. The fact that it's used in The Big One doesn't make it any more plausible.
 
I stand corrected. It's a risible premise that cannot be taken seriously by anyone who has the first idea about the subject. The fact that it's used in The Big One doesn't make it any more plausible.
TBH very little in The Big One and sequels is plausible.
You are of course correct that the 'Halifax surrenders to Germany' meme-let is nonsensical.
 
Hey, no fair!

The city was named after the Second Earl Halifax, who shared no relation with the Vicount, later Earl, Halifax of WW2.
Ah but the patriotic Canadians (later north USAians) were so repulsed by the behaviour of the utterly unrelated Earl that they spontaneously renamed the city to Churchill.
And, seriously, given the quality of TBOverse research are you surprised?
 
Ah but the patriotic Canadians (later north USAians) were so repulsed by the behaviour of the utterly unrelated Earl that they spontaneously renamed the city to Churchill.
And, seriously, given the quality of TBOverse research are you surprised?
No, but I figured it deserved a protest.
 
I stand corrected. It's a risible premise that cannot be taken seriously by anyone who has the first idea about the subject. The fact that it's used in The Big One doesn't make it any more plausible.

There was also another pretty bad AH book that had the same premise, only Halifax agreed to allow German troops to be stationed in the UK and the British government of the 50's was getting ready to surrender its Jewish population to the Nazis so they could be allowed more soldiers to fight in the Empire.
 
No time to read through the other posts, though I presume most would agree that peace between the UK and Germany would be untenable at best, and a complete farce at worst. There was zero trust in Hitler to honor any agreements, coupled with the fact that withdrawal from the occupied territories would be a baseline stipulation for any agreement (something Hitler would not agree to with Barbarossa already in the planning stages by summer 1940). The whole thing would be a nonstarter.
 
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If the scenario happens, I suspect that Britain rapidly retools and preps for round two and then winds up in shock when the USSR nearly goes down in the first year. Cold War ensues.
 
Ah but the patriotic Canadians (later north USAians) were so repulsed by the behaviour of the utterly unrelated Earl that they spontaneously renamed the city to Churchill.
And, seriously, given the quality of TBOverse research are you surprised?
Stuart Slade admitted that other than the military tech stuff, a lot of it was written to take the piss/for the lulz.
 
If the scenario happens, I suspect that Britain rapidly retools and preps for round two and then winds up in shock when the USSR nearly goes down in the first year. Cold War ensues.
I'd also expect them to start selling weapons to Russia. And I don't see the Germans letting the convoys to Murmanks just go by. Which would mean there'd be a hot war very soon.
 
There was also another pretty bad AH book that had the same premise, only Halifax agreed to allow German troops to be stationed in the UK and the British government of the 50's was getting ready to surrender its Jewish population to the Nazis so they could be allowed more soldiers to fight in the Empire.
Carey's Widowland? Sansom Dominion?Walton's Small Change series? Though the latter has no US support and a successful Hess mission as the main PoD.
Andrew Roberts' short story 'Prime Minister Halifax' has the basic premise. And Charmley wrote a similar story.
Stuart Slade admitted that other than the military tech stuff, a lot of it was written to take the piss/for the lulz.
And the military stuff was his wish fulfillment and point scoring.
 
Carey's Widowland? Sansom Dominion?Walton's Small Change series? Though the latter has no US support and a successful Hess mission as the main PoD.
Andrew Roberts' short story 'Prime Minister Halifax' has the basic premise. And Charmley wrote a similar story.

Dominion, that were the bunny. I think the author had an SNP equivalent be fascist friendly as well, come to think of it.
 
Sorry but at no point did Halifax ever get close to having support for such an idea and if he became PM it would be on the explicit understanding he prosecutes the war. Your premise ignores the political mood in Britain and the fact that Hitler has no intention of withdrawing from Western Europe,
Halifax suggested a negotiated peace during the battle of France and could have brought down Churchill’s government if he resigned, chamberlain was also on the fence at this moment and with Halifax as PM he would have more appeal. Many of the public in Britain didn’t want war before the Blitz started so if he announced his intention for an armistice it could gain public support. Many people didn’t want a long war after the experience which was ww1.
Hitler knew no such thing, and he was content to fight a two front war within a few months. Hitler wanted and needed Europe under his control to launch his attack on the USSR the idea he would give up so much territory and resources is just completely implausible.
Not really Hitler had no choice to fight a two front war because Britain refused peace. He offered Britain peace in May 1941 just before his attack on the Soviet Union.

Obviously the German withdraw from this territory wouldn’t be immediate and the resources plundered but eventually they would withdraw. Instead of being annexed. Germany did have intentions to annex these territories later on in the war as it got more brutal but not at the start. Hitlers main priority was also the east with its vast lands for German settlers, he was that bothered about Western Europe and view the Dutch, Danish and Norwegians as fellow Germanics so wouldn’t be too harsh on them.
 
Many of the public in Britain didn’t want war before the Blitz started so if he announced his intention for an armistice it could gain public support. Many people didn’t want a long war after the experience which was ww1.
This is just not true.

Gallup polls of 1940 in Britain:

JANUARY 26
LENGTH OF WAR
Special Survey
Asked in Great Britain: For how long do you think the war will continue?
One year or less..................... 30%
One to two years.................... 25
Three years or more................. 30
No opinion......................... 15

APRIL 15
BRITISH POLITICS
Special Survey
Asked in Great Britain: If Mr. Chamberlain were to retire, whom would you like to see succeed him as Prime Minister?
Eden............................... 28%
Churchill........................... 25
Halifax............................. 7
Attlee.............................. 6
Others.............................23
No opinion......................... 11

APRIL 26
NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN
Special Survey
Asked in Great Britain: In general, do you approve or disapprove of Mr. Chamberlain as Prime Minister?
Approve............................ 61%
Disapprove.......................... 39
Seven per cent expressed no opinion.

JULY 12
NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN
Special Survey
Asked in Great Britain: Do you think Neville Chamberlain should be dropped from the Government?
Yes................................77%
No................................ 23

AUGUST 14
WINSTON CHURCHILL
Special Survey
Asked in Great Britain: In general, do you approve or disapprove of Mr. Churchill as Prime Minister?
Approve............................ 88%
Disapprove......................... 7
No opinion......................... 5


Source: http://ibiblio.org/pha/Gallup/Gallup 1940.htm
 
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A final peace is signed and France has to cede Alsace-Lorraine and perhaps Cameroon and Togo. Britain is also asked to return former German colonies but whether this happens or not depends on how willing Britain is to let them go as Hitler probably wouldn’t want to push Britain too far in case they re-enter the war and Hitler isn’t really in a position to make such demands. Luxembourg is annexed by Germany and the land Belgium took off Germany after WW1. Germany agrees to leave Belgium, Holland, Denmark and Norway however pro German governments are set up before they leave.
You expect Hitler to give up all of France?
 

Garrison

Donor
Not really Hitler had no choice to fight a two front war because Britain refused peace. He offered Britain peace in May 1941 just before his attack on the Soviet Union.
And you do understand that nothing in Hitler's terms were remotely realistic or acceptable to the British? And he certainly never offered to withdraw from Western Europe. This doesn't even get to the absurd notion that Hitler 'had no choice'.
 
And you do understand that nothing in Hitler's terms were remotely realistic or acceptable to the British? And he certainly never offered to withdraw from Western Europe. This doesn't even get to the absurd notion that Hitler 'had no choice'.
Plus, and I really have to stress this point, no-one in the British Government trusted Hitler to keep his word. Why should they - he broke his promises so regularly that only his most ardent sycophants trusted him.
 
This is just not true.

Gallup polls of 1940 in Britain:

JANUARY 26
LENGTH OF WAR
Special Survey
Asked in Great Britain: For how long do you think the war will continue?
One year or less..................... 30%
One to two years.................... 25
Three years or more................. 30
No opinion......................... 15

APRIL 15
BRITISH POLITICS
Special Survey
Asked in Great Britain: If Mr. Chamberlain were to retire, whom would you like to see succeed him as Prime Minister?
Eden............................... 28%
Churchill........................... 25
Halifax............................. 7
Attlee.............................. 6
Others.............................23
No opinion......................... 11

APRIL 26
NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN
Special Survey
Asked in Great Britain: In general, do you approve or disapprove of Mr. Chamberlain as Prime Minister?
Approve............................ 61%
Disapprove.......................... 39
Seven per cent expressed no opinion.

JULY 12
NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN
Special Survey
Asked in Great Britain: Do you think Neville Chamberlain should be dropped from the Government?
Yes................................77%
No................................ 23

AUGUST 14
WINSTON CHURCHILL
Special Survey
Asked in Great Britain: In general, do you approve or disapprove of Mr. Churchill as Prime Minister?
Approve............................ 88%
Disapprove......................... 7
No opinion......................... 5


Source: http://ibiblio.org/pha/Gallup/Gallup 1940.htm
Those don’t really prove anything tho considering the peace movement was strong before the Biltz happened so obviously a poll taken in August would be pro Churchill because it was taken during the Blitz and there was no chance of peace after that.
 
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